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How would you deal with an ISC CS tournament fleet?
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1869

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MMm have to go for the moment, hope this hasn't got to many typos or grammar issues.

mojo jojo wrote:

The ISC blasts a ship and turns away, leaving a bunch of plasma in the face as the Orion/Vudar chases. Are you going to be running the 2nd Orion/Vudar ship into that mass of plasma? That will do the ISC's job for them.


"Blast" is an odd term, as per the initial point, those 2 races can put up enough mods to make a long range blast more of a longe range scratch. Anyone decent coming at you knows they need to mitigate the long range attack and then press on in even if it means taking some plasma, and if you fire it all so much the better. Plasma F just isn't that scary. Even if you have the middle of the map at the point of fire and turn away you are still only looking at 15 to 20 hexes of running room. You are going to get caught at range 8 like it or not. I don't know how many times you've played the tourney style fixed map, but avoiding someone coming at you is very hard, especially once you have fired your big multi-turn armers and are in slow turning ships with little free power for fancy manouvers.


Quote:

The best Hydran fusion fleet is 2 Ranger/2 Mohawk for 444 pts. Both these ships have turn mode C. You could instead replace 2 of them with Mongols with MC C, but the Mongols are smaller ships with lesser shields and would be targetted first. And they're 11 pts less each.


True (about the mongols, not necessarily about the best force). I was using 2 mongols (as noted above), I had just modified my basic mixed group of 2 Mongols and 2 Tartars to make a pure fusion group of 2 mongols and 2 of the others. I'm not sure I'd want the rangers due to the odd arcs. The shield difference is not that bad, and the turn mode is nicer. I was just going to fill in the odd points with a couple of stingers which I haven't bothered mentioning yet. There may be even better groups. The mongol/mohawk group was the just the first that came to mind.


Quote:

2 Hydran ships are going to be more than 'a bit' further back in order to avoid plasma. And one of the front ships has a down front shield and damaged side shields from the earlier PPD blast. It may have taken some internals and might not have power to pursue, especially if the ISC managed a range 10 shot and targetted pwr.


Not especially that far back. You simply don't have that much avoidnace room in the firt place. As I keep saying the odd down shield is not an issue, Hydran fusion forces can afford, and generally just accept that they lose a ship, or get beaten up on the attack run. They know how to make it up afterwards.

As for the range 10 - this is where I am getting confused. What is your tactical plan, fire at range and run, or wait to fire closer and direct (doing half my job for me). If as you say, you are not using phasers so as to retain accels then what makes you think any directed damage will have hit power to the point it is an issue, even with phasers you were just pushing past a downed shield. Fusion ships require no power allocation until they need it. You need to nobble a lot of power to get a fusion ship struggling to catch you up against the map edge and unable to hit hard with PhG/1/2s.

Quote:

You're going 24 and you have a turn mode 5. You are going to be hit by the plasma. At best you can delay it to a 2nd impulse impact by decelerating a bunch of times. Or you can HET away, but I don't think that fits into your strategy.


?? You said you are going to launch 4 plasma at one ship at range 6-8. Even if you fire at range 6 then a single turn can guarantee at best a 3 impulse impact for 40, possibly longer depending on other factors. Unless the CS are holding on as well and haven't already turned (which plays into the hands of the other hydran ships), that single turn will be in a direction that puts them on an intercept course. There is almost no reason why the Hydran would have turned just prior to your launch, so that shouldn't be an issue.


Quote:

If you're eating the rear plasma on the 2/6 shield, you're going to be taking internals. A 1 impulse hit means 14 internals and a 2 impulse hit means 6 internals on a fresh shield. If the plasma is targetted on the ship hit by the PPD volley turn 1, then you'll be taking many more internals since their 2/6 has already been damaged.


So? On a lucky DAC roll he loses 3 Ph2 and a fusion, you get whacked for 60+ back, with a second ship about to do the same. As I said 'situation dependent'. I'm not going to run in fear of a downed shield and 14 odd internals if I'm likely to do 60 odd damage back through the back end of a CS. Thats a no brainer exchange. If I really can't avoid the full plasma blast through an already down shield then I might have to make a judgement call on turning away, although by then the ISC are probably dealing with the map edge, and a turn out may not be that bad as at some point the ISC will have to do the same.


Quote:

Remember, you're already dipping into battery power to pursue at all. 1 ship has been hit by at least 64 plasma, another ship has been hit by PPD and 2 rear plasma. You're looking at 2 good ships pursuing at the moment with very little if any discretionary power. These 2 ships have the same turn mode and MC as the CS, so every impulse movement orders are written down. If you don't turn at the same time as the CS, you lose a tempo. Between slips and turning at the wrong time, it becomes harder than you think to actually pin down a ship.


Dip into battery power? It takes 1 and a bit turns to go from corner of the tourney map to another. The hydrans may have used 1 battery to close by the time we are getting to the important bit. The CSs didn't even start with batteries. Your plasma assumptions are out. I'm aware that during the pursuit turn there is little discretionary power, but there is more than the CS can muster and there is enough to deliver PhG and Ph1s if the oppotunity presents itself. The following turn is likely no EM and with the map edge looming (if it isn't already) possibly no need for all 8 accels.

The hydran is going 24+. The CS is only going 24+ if he saved power from somewhere. If you want to use simulatneous moves then the CS sacrifices something for it. The mongols don't have any issue.

It is no where near as hard to pin a power starved slow turn ship like a CS on the fixed map as you think.

Quote:

Even if you catch the ISC during the turn, you probably don't have enough discretionary power to fire more than the PH-G and a few PH1/PH-2 at the cost of eating potentially 20 PH1 and possibly 8 PH3, depending on discretionary power. Let's say all phasers are fired on both sides, but there is not enough power for fusions and PPD hasn't been reloaded yet. I'm assuming the exchange is off the 2 or 6 shield since the Hydran probably isn't going to centerline and that the range is 1. 2 Mohawks have 4 PH1, 8 PH2, and 8 PH3 equivalent between the 2 ships. ISC have 20 PH1, 8 PH3 between their 4 ships. The Hydrans can definitely wreck a CS in this situation, but they may very well lose both Mohawks in the process. And then they're by the Hydrans with 1 good CS and 2 good FF vs 2 very damaged Hydran ships remaining.


At least 1 of your ships is not on the same shield at range 1 (stacking). Your average damage isn't killing 2 mohawks.

Again, what are you doing. Were you firing Ph1s with the PPD, were you using the power to run? you think the hydran had power issues, the hydran had enough to do what they want but The CS has to make some hard choices. Did you change your mind about running and decide on the range 1 pass in order to bring in the 20 ph1s at range 1? Did you accept less phasers to allow for the accel to get simultaneous moves (against mohawks anyway)?

Having done the pass against the first 2 ships the other 2 ships are about to come in and also unload on you. When did the other 2 ships get very damaged? The last I saw they were untouched with plasma in chase, but if you spread plasma to 2 ships they are barely scratched.

Quote:

The ISC can also give the Hydran a very nasty choice by having the FF get range 1 first. Since they're expendable and they're more maneuverable than the Hydran, they can probably achieve centerline range 0 or 1. Between them, they have 8 PH1 and 8 PH3, which is quite enough to cripple a Mohawk. If the Hydrans don't shoot the FF, then they have only 1 ship left when they catch the CS. If they shoot the FF and nuke them, then the CS will be able to clean up the remainder.


Eh? you really think that exchanging frigates for a cripple cruiser is going to allow the CS to clean up!! you don't even cause the hydrans to slow down. There are 3 more or less intact cruisers (possible down off shields and a few internals on a couple) closing in, The CS still has the issue of being outnumbered with a turn to go for PPD arming, against ships that can blow them away with damage to spare in a single pass.


However, the fact that you are even trying to come up with ways to counter the hydran overrun is demonstrating that they don't 'just die' to PPD and plasma before even reaching you. Which is all I'm getting at. The ISC are going to have to work hard to beat them (if they can).
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
"Blast" is an odd term, as per the initial point, those 2 races can put up enough mods to make a long range more of a longe range sctatch. Anyone decent coming at you knows they need to mitigate the long range attack and then press on in even if it means taking some plasma, and if you fire it all so much the better. Plasma F just isn't that scary. Even if you have the middle of the map at the point of fire and turn away you are still only looking at 15 to 20 hexes of running room. You are going to get caught at range 8 like it or not. I don't know how many times you've played the tourney style fixed map, but avoiding someone coming at you is very hard, especially once you have fired your big multi-turn armers and are in slow turning ships with little free power for fancy manouvers.


A Vudar fleet probably has only 3 ships. If you're going to eat 6 PL-F in order to gain a range 8 shot, that's ok with me. Turn 1, the Ions probably aren't overloaded or else you aren't making up enough ground. The result is that 1-2 ships have taken 6 Fs between them and one has a down shield and 2 damaged side shields from PPDs. You probably have just 1 undamaged ship left. Not too bad from the ISC POV. Orions might have 4 ships, but those ships are far more brittle. Taking a PPD blast and 6 PL-F just to try and get a range 8 shot is probably a losing proposition.

storeylf wrote:

Not especially that far back. You simply don't have that much avoidnace room in the firt place. As I keep saying the odd down shield is not an issue, Hydran fusion forces can afford, and generally just accept that they lose a ship, or get beaten up on the attack run. They know how to make it up afterwards.

As for the range 10 - this is where I am getting confused. What is your tactical plan, fire at range and run, or wait to fire closer and direct (doing half my job for me). If as you say you are not using phasers so as to retain accels then what makes you think any directed damage will have nobbled power to the point is an issue, even with phasers you were just pushing past a downed shield. Fusion ships require no power allocation until they need it. You need to nobble a lot of power to get a fusion ship struggling to catch you up against the map edge and unable to hit hard with PhG/1/2s.


I'm going to be opportunistic. If I feel that my best option is a range 15 shot, that is what I'm going to take. If I feel that range 10 is better, then I'll take that. Both of us have been doing the 'what if' game, so my range 10 comment was in response to a what if. Most likely I'm going to be in the 12-15 range when I fire.

storeylf wrote:

?? You said you are going to launch 4 plasma at one ship at range 6-8. Even if you fire at range 6 then a single turn can guarantee at best a 3 impulse impact for 40, possibly more depending on other factors. Unless the CS are holding on as well and haven't already turned (which plays into the hands of the other hydran ships), that single turn will be in a direction that puts them on an intercept course. There is almost no reason why the Hydran would have turned just prior to your launch, so that shouldn't be an issue.


I just mapped it out on the board. You are correct that you can have an impulse 3 impact with enough slips at the cost of being significantly further away. That should still be 40 damage unless you want to turn again and be much further away. 40 damage to a side shield is still significant to one of these ships.


storeylf wrote:

So? On a lucky DAC roll he loses 3 Ph2 and a fusion, you get whacked for 60+ back, with a second ship about to do the same. As I said 'situation dependent'. I'm not going to run in fear of a downed shield and 14 odd internals if I'm likely to do 60 odd damage back through the back end of a CS. Thats a no brainer exchange. If I really can't avoid the full plasma blast through an already down shield then I might have to make a judgement call on turning away, although by then the ISC are probably dealing with the map edge, and a turn out may not be that bad as at some point the ISC will have to do the same.


If it's the ship that got PPD'd in the first turn, then it's taking more damage. Probably 10+ more internals. This may make pursuit impossible in the next turn.


storeylf wrote:

Dip into battery power? It takes 1 and a bit turns to go from corner of the tourney map to another. The hydrans may have used 1 battery to close by the time we are getting to the important bit. The CSs didn't even start with batteries. Your plasma assumptions are out. I'm aware that during the pursuit turn there is little discretionary power, but there is more than the CS can muster and there is enough to deliver PhG and Ph1s if the oppotunity presents itself. The following turn is likely no EM and with the map edge looming possibly no need for all 8 accels.

The hydran is going 24+. The CS is only going 24+ if he saved power from somewhere. If you want to use simulatneous moves then the CS sacrifices something for it. The mongols don't have any issue.



Against the EM strategy, the ISC doesn't fire PH1 from the CS the first turn and will have batteries. The CS can move 32 and still charge PPDs without touching batteries. If they absolutely have to, they can leave 1 PPD uncharged to get more discretionary power. And of course, the ISC isn't going the full 32 on turn 1. At least the first few impulses they won't need to accelerate.


storeylf wrote:

It is no where near as hard to pin a power starved slow turn ship like a CS on the fixed map as you think.


Yes it is, especially if you are a power starved slow turn ship yourself. If the ISC player is making the long turn, you can cut him off. However, you need to get to range 0, 1, or at most 2 at the end of an impulse in the FA somewhere for it to matter. Considering that all movement decisions are written down, it's quite easy for you to guess wrong and be at range 3-4 at the end of an approach impulse and then fly by the next impulse. If you're at range 3-4, the ISC PH1's should devastate you before you get a good shot off.


storeylf wrote:

At least 1 of your ships is not on the same shield at range 1 (stacking). Your average damage isn't killing 2 mohawks.


Since the FF are so maneuverable and have such a great power curve, they can easily be a hex ahead of the CS. Given that they move after your ships, they can position themselves however they want. With 20 PH1 and perhaps 8-12 PH3 depending on how the FF position themselves, the 2 mohawks may not be actually dead, but they should take a big beating. Meanwhile with the low discretionary power that the Hydrans have, they're not going to inflict equal damage back. As I said, they probably have 4 PH1, 8 PH2, and 8 PH3 between them in arc.

storeylf wrote:

Again, what are you doing. Were you firing Ph1s with the PPD, were you using the power to run? you think the hydran had power issues, the hydran had enough to do what they want but The CS has to make some hard choices. Did you change your mind about running and decide on the range 1 pass in order to bring in the 20 ph1s at range 1? Did you accept less phasers to allow for the accel to get simultaneous moves (against mohawks anyway)?


If Hydrans are EM, then no phasers were fired in turn 1.

storeylf wrote:

Having done the pass against the first 2 ships the other 2 ships are about to come in and also unload on you. When did the other 2 ships get very damaged? The last I saw they were untouched with plasma in chase, but if you spread plasma to 2 ships they are barely scratched.


They better be able to reach range 0, 1 or 2 on the exact same turn before energy allocation of the next turn. And with potentially 2 additional PL-F after them depending on whether they were needed for the 1st 2 ships.


storeylf wrote:

Eh? you really think that exchanging frigates for a cripple cruiser is going to allow the CS to clean up!! you don't even cause the hydrans to slow down. There are 3 more or less intact cruisers (possible down off shields and a few internals on a couple) closing in, The CS still has the issue of being outnumbered with a turn to go for PPD arming, against ships that can blow them away with damage to spare in a single pass.


If the 2 front ships use their fire on the FF, then the 2 CS follow and cripple the remaining good ship without taking any damage. That leaves 2 ships, possibly with down shields, against 2 intact CS. I like the CS chances here.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I'm going to be opportunistic. If I feel that my best option is a range 15 shot, that is what I'm going to take. If I feel that range 10 is better, then I'll take that. Both of us have been doing the 'what if' game, so my range 10 comment was in response to a what if. Most likely I'm going to be in the 12-15 range when I fire.


I'm not exactly playing 'what if', I have merely been pointing out what the hydran charge means for your tactics the ISC. I haven't made a single change to the hydran tactics to accomodate any of the ISC flip-flops yet. It was and remains essentially EM -> close -> shoot, only avoid a big plasma launch, and only to the point that it won't do noticeble* internal before closing. At this point that applies for anything you have suggested for the ISC. Fusion hydran w/out stingers are not hard to play. Certainly you are right in that one has to adjust of course.

* (subjective obviously, you seem think things are signficant when I see them as being acceptable) .

Adjusting whether and how long to avoid a plasma launch is an implementation detail, not quite in the same ballpark as working out whether you shoot and scoot or close and hose, do you arm a PPD or try to wait a turn for the extra power. There is nothing wrong with what you are coming up with, and we could go on for weeks discussing counters to counters, and I was almost finished typing a long response again, but whats the point? - the point I'm making is that you are looking at a tough fight. You are not achieving the following:

Quote:
Hydran Fusion ships just die. They will never get close enough to have a firepower advantage before being blasted into wreckage from PPDs, phasers, and plasma F.


Nothing you have suggested is a tactic in which the ISC just win, you are hoping to gain an edge at each stage by little tweaky things that may be countered, or a belief that people will respond illogically in certain ways to plasma F. That is all well and good, and maybe the ISC will win. I seriously don't see any clear imbalance in that fight, the hydrans look just as good to win.

Or as I said in my first post

Quote:
There will be counters to that for the ISC - but I think you are being incredibly optimistic to discount a hydran fusion fleet so casually.


[edit]I'm more than happy to continue a discussion on the matchup, I love nothing more than discussing such things.

But if you do post such can you at least sort out a more coherent overall plan, by which I mean things like how you are on one hand discussing lanching all plasma at one ship for a big hit of 40-80 damage, then talking about a point blank pass with 2 hydran ships already running from plasma. Which would you have done, the all at one, or 2 smaller launches at 2? discussing the pros and cons and counters is hard when it just appears to be a list of random possibilities rather than an overall tactical plan. Without that context such discusson becomes a bit meanlingless.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I've been away for a few days. I just arranged this matchup vs a friend. The ISC had 2 CS and 2 FF. The Hydrans had 2 Rangers and 2 Mohawks (the game only comes with 1, so I had to have my friend bring his card over). I played the Hydrans.

Turn 1:

Hydrans declare EM and speed 24. ISC declare speed 8. After impulse 8, the ISC FF are 3 hexes away and the CS are 8 hexes away from the Hydrans. All PH1 fire on a mhk and bring its front shield down to 5 boxes. The 2 CS launch PL-F at that mhk and the 2 FF launch PL-F, 2 on 1 rgr and 2 on the undamaged mhk. ISC have full power and Hydran has all but 1 power since they accelerated all 8 impulses. PPDs were not fired.

Turn 2:

ISC declares speed 16. Hydrans declare speed 24 and maintain EM.

Impulse 1, the Hydrans turn and manage to not get hit with a 1 impulse impact from the Plasma. They slowly close in on the 2 CS. The 2 CS launch on the last Hydran ship.

Impulse 2, the rgr and mhk take 2 plasmas to the 4 shield. 6 internals each and a down shield. PPDs are fired at the mohawk fired upon in turn 1 and take down the 1 shield completely and do a number of internals. 10 pulses hit out of 16 potential.

Impulse 3. The Hydrans drop EM. The Hydrans arrange to have 1 ship at range 0 at the CS and 2 ships at range 1, 2 shield to 2 shield. 2 plasma hit the 3 shields of the 2 ships that weren't hit by plasma in impulse 2. 1 was a 2 impulse hit, and 1 was a 3 impulse hit that did a handful of internals. The 2 ISC FF get to range 0 off the 3 shield of the 2 Hydran ships that were 1 hex away from the 2 CS. The last Hydran ship HETs and is 1 hex away from the FF with 2 energy left.

Shots are exchanged. The 4 ISC ships have 20 PH1 and 12 PH3, but I arranged it so that most of the shots were vs undamaged shields except for the mohawk that was hit by PPDs on the previous impulse. That ship had 4 power left and fires 2 PHG and 2 PH1 at 1 CS. The 2 ships at 1 hex range had 5 and 7 power left respectively and both fire at the other CS. The 5 power one fires 1 PHG, 2 PH1, and 2 PH2. The 7 power one fires 1 PHG, 2 PH1, 2 PH2, and 1 fusion. The Ranger who HET'd in impulse 2 fires 2 PHG at a FF.

After all the carnage, the Hydrans have 1 mhk which is basically dead. It has perhaps 10-15 non-shuttle boxes left. 1 Ranger took about 40-50 internals. The other 2 ships have 6 internals each from PL-F in the previous impulse and 1 down shield but are otherwise unhurt.

The ISC have 1 CS with a down 1 shield and perhaps 5-10 internals. 1 CS has a down 2 shield and about 50 or so internals, but it has most of its weapons left and about 18 power. 1 FF has a down 1 shield and 9 internals, mostly power boxes.

The Hydrans have no power left, but the ISC still had a few power available.

At this point, we called the game since my friend needed to work tomorrow. The 2 sides were going in opposite directions, but the Hydrans had a good chance to catch the ISC crippled CS during the reload turn. The ISC had done significantly more damage with basically 1.5 ships taken out whereas they had lost 1/2 a ship, but they were 13 impulses away from being able to reload their PPDs.

We both figured that the ISC had an advantage at this point, but it wasn't completely conclusive. I would still give an edge to the ISC in this matchup. Going speed 32 and EM means that even if you catch them, you have very little discretionary power left for weapons, especially since you may need some power to decel at opportune times to get good firing positions or to evade plasma. And it's damn hard to centerline and get both PHG from the same ship into play against the CS.
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dharras
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
Sorry, I've been away for a few days. I just arranged this matchup vs a friend. The ISC had 2 CS and 2 FF. The Hydrans had 2 Rangers and 2 Mohawks (the game only comes with 1, so I had to have my friend bring his card over). I played the Hydrans.


Did you take any stingers in them there ships? If not, why not just take the hellbore versions?
Stingers do one of two things when you carry them: Either they die (because they just got shot at) which is good, because your ships didn't. Or they fly very close to the enemy ship and make it vanish, or thirdly, they fly somewhere else on the map and the enemy doesn't go there until/unless they have to.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dharras wrote:
Did you take any stingers in them there ships? If not, why not just take the hellbore versions?
Stingers do one of two things when you carry them: Either they die (because they just got shot at) which is good, because your ships didn't. Or they fly very close to the enemy ship and make it vanish, or thirdly, they fly somewhere else on the map and the enemy doesn't go there until/unless they have to.



My whole discussion in this thread with Storeylf was in regards to a pure fusion fleet. We didn't really argue about stingers or hellbores.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
dharras wrote:
Did you take any stingers in them there ships? If not, why not just take the hellbore versions?
Stingers do one of two things when you carry them: Either they die (because they just got shot at) which is good, because your ships didn't. Or they fly very close to the enemy ship and make it vanish, or thirdly, they fly somewhere else on the map and the enemy doesn't go there until/unless they have to.



My whole discussion in this thread with Storeylf was in regards to a pure fusion fleet. We didn't really argue about stingers or hellbores.


Agreed - We were arguing whether a fusion fleet was doomed not a hellbore fleet. In a tourney game (the point of the thread) you can only have 8 stingers max anyway. I'd have taken the mohawks/mongols (as noted earlier) rather than rangers, so I'd probably had 2 stingers to make up the points. Not quite sure what I'd with them TBH, drop em early (before going EM) to move up on their own and just be a potential nuisance to the ISC moving in their direction, or keep on board to launch later?

Now under the older tourney rules which had no stinger limit I played a mass stinger fleet a few times and found it absolutely brutal, very tough to beat.

Not to say that we can't argue about stingers and hellbores if you want Smile
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think the Fusion is a good weapon on its own. I'm mid scenario right now where I'm flying a Orion LR. I took Disrs in the wing mounts for long range attacks, and a Fusion in the front to assist in knife fights. And as of now, I'm doing pretty well.
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gar1138
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
Personally, I think the Fusion is a good weapon on its own. I'm mid scenario right now where I'm flying a Orion LR. I took Disrs in the wing mounts for long range attacks, and a Fusion in the front to assist in knife fights. And as of now, I'm doing pretty well.

Well, Pine, in all fairness, we (um, I mean I) haven't really dealt with you yet in that game. But my sights (and my four drone racks) are now squarely looking at you! Smile

Garrett
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 thing I noticed is that EM increases turn mode by 1. So mohawks/rangers have a turn mode 6 if under EM and going 24 while mongols would have a turn mode 5.

I'm not entirely sure it was worth it being under EM for turn 2. It did save me a bunch of damage from PPDs, but it severely reduced the number of weapons I was able to fire in return.

If I were an Orion LR and I wanted a weapon for knife fighting, I'd take a gatling over a fusion any day.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its hard to decide whether some decisions were good or bad from such an AAR, as obvioulsy I can't tell exactly what was happening, what sounds bad may have not been so bad given the proper full situation. That said, some things seem questionable given the way they are written.

I can't work out why the hydran ended up at range 8 on turn 1 impulse 8 to the CS when he clearly wasn't going to be firing. Going from range 9 to range 8 triples the average damage you are going to take (with EM), and is also slightly iffy as it is a possible 1 impulse plasma launch range as well. In the face of those phasers, ending range 8 without a really good reason is just a no-no at that point in the turn (in most matches never mind this one). The hydran should have been barely taking 5 shield damage not being left with 5 shield. Handing the other guy a 'free' 20+ damage right at the start is just wrong.

With plasma coming in from range 8 did you really need to turn (with turn mode 6), just not accelerating would have ensured an impulse 2 impact whilst keeping turn options open and still keeping move intiative?

I'm not understanding the HET to attack a frigate, when everything else is going for the CSs? kill off the CSs, don't waste it on the frigates (and fresh shields) which have no plasma for a couple of turns anyway, 7 power worth of internal into a CS would have been far more useful than 2 into a frigate. It didn't sound like you had split up the ships until then.

Again given the lack of me actually seeing everything going on, I'm not sure why the hydran found it so hard to centerline those gatlings, they had move intiative - what did the ISC do to make it so hard? It sounds like the ISC came more or less at you, so it should have been easy enough to keep the centerline. Even a range 2 centerline is better than a range 1 off center when just using those phasers.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
If I were an Orion LR and I wanted a weapon for knife fighting, I'd take a gatling over a fusion any day.


Agree with that, fusions are not that good. They are very much the weapon you fire with 'spare' power after you have powered all the phasers, even firing 2*ph2s are nearly always better then a fusion. They are good when added onto all the short range phaser power the hydrans have, but not really as a weapon in their own right. A gatling beats a fusion hands down.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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Location: Earth

PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gar1138 wrote:
pinecone wrote:
Personally, I think the Fusion is a good weapon on its own. I'm mid scenario right now where I'm flying a Orion LR. I took Disrs in the wing mounts for long range attacks, and a Fusion in the front to assist in knife fights. And as of now, I'm doing pretty well.

Well, Pine, in all fairness, we (um, I mean I) haven't really dealt with you yet in that game. But my sights (and my four drone racks) are now squarely looking at you! Smile

Garrett


Oh, I've no doubt. But my fusion did help injure that diminutive little POL quite nicely.

Yes, the Ph-g is better, but the fusion is actsully a little more versatile at long range, cause it basically has the "effective" range of a photon, while the gatling has the effective range of, well, like 3.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I can't work out why the hydran ended up at range 8 on turn 1 impulse 8 to the CS when he clearly wasn't going to be firing. Going from range 9 to range 8 triples the average damage you are going to take (with EM), and is also slightly iffy as it is a possible 1 impulse plasma launch range as well. In the face of those phasers, ending range 8 without a really good reason is just a no-no at that point in the turn (in most matches never mind this one). The hydran should have been barely taking 5 shield damage not being left with 5 shield. Handing the other guy a 'free' 20+ damage right at the start is just wrong.


How was it 20+ damage? 12 PH1 would be a difference of 10 damage between range 8 and 9.


storeylf wrote:

With plasma coming in from range 8 did you really need to turn (with turn mode 6), just not accelerating would have ensured an impulse 2 impact whilst keeping turn options open and still keeping move intiative?


The CS had turned on impulse 8 as well in order to be able to launch F's from the L/LR plasmas. So turning actually brought me closer to their likely path and allowed me to avoid the plasma a little longer. And these plasmas were the ones that impacted impulse 3, so it saved me 12 pts of damage.

storeylf wrote:

I'm not understanding the HET to attack a frigate, when everything else is going for the CSs? kill off the CSs, don't waste it on the frigates (and fresh shields) which have no plasma for a couple of turns anyway, 7 power worth of internal into a CS would have been far more useful than 2 into a frigate. It didn't sound like you had split up the ships until then.


It was a matter of turning there or not getting a shot off at all. This ship had separated a bit from the others to avoid a 1 impulse impact from F's. It would've shot right past the ISC if it didn't HET. This was the ship that wasn't targetted by any plasma on turn 1, so it moved straight at the CS. The ISC launched 2 rear PL-F from the CS on impulse 1 at it. Given the maneuvering going on, that was the best shot available. It was the choice between 2 guaranteed PH-G, or potentially not getting any shots at all. I also could've shot a CS on a fresh shield at 2 hexes range, but I thought this was the better shot.


storeylf wrote:

Again given the lack of me actually seeing everything going on, I'm not sure why the hydran found it so hard to centerline those gatlings, they had move intiative - what did the ISC do to make it so hard? It sounds like the ISC came more or less at you, so it should have been easy enough to keep the centerline. Even a range 2 centerline is better than a range 1 off center when just using those phasers.


There was quite a bit of maneuvering going on. Turn and slip modes had to be fulfilled. The way the ISC positioned his ships, I had to accept a 2 shield vs 2 shield shot or else the next impulse would've seen us shoot right by each other.

The Hydrans in this scenario had 1 ship at 0 hexes range, 2 at 1 hex range vs CS, and 1 at 1 hex range vs FF. I think this is about as good as they're going to get with the SPD 32 and EM strategy.


Edit: You do realize that the FF were at range 3 at the end of turn 1 don't you? They were well ahead of the CS.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
How was it 20+ damage? 12 PH1 would be a difference of 10 damage between range 8 and 9.


I wasn't sure how many phasers had fired. But you took about ~27 damage going down to 5 on a full front shield (I think a mohawk has 32). Given the amount of damage, I was assuming rather more than 12 ph1s.

At most he had 20ph1 which average 3 damage at range 9 against EM. Even allowing for excellent luck I wouldn't have expected more than 7. That is a 20+ difference between what you might have expeceted and actually took.

Even going purely by averages, At range 8 he averages 20 but allowing for variance can certainly do better, and the spread is higher at range 8. You are looking at 17 extra damage on average and a noticeable chance of 20+.

Even with 12ph1s I wouldn't be handing my opponent an extra 10 average damage without a good reason. It's a given that he will fire at the end of the turn in that situation, you can't. Only close if it really does look like the extra hex is going to be absolutely crucial to whatever you are trying to achieve. Hydran fusion ships need to close fast, but not blindly.


Quote:
Edit: You do realize that the FF were at range 3 at the end of turn 1 don't you? They were well ahead of the CS.


Oopps - yes I did read that, and then forgot about that when querying the turn away.
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