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Am I doomed as a Romulan?
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
The issue I mentioned with Roms is that the cloak is of variable effectiveness in random matchups, in some matchups the fact that you have a smaller ship for the points is made up by the cloak, in others it isn't. That makes them dubious in an all comers tourney style setting. I like the roms, but in that type of game I tend to avoid them for that reason and nothing to do with plasma. If you are playing scenarios or properly thought out campaigns, then yes it should be less of an issue.


Would you be interested in testing this out? 450 pt PBEM game, you take Romulans and I take Kzinti, Lyran, Klingon, Orion, WYN, or ISC. We can probably get terryoc as moderator.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably asked this before, but how have the plasma empires worked out in Middle Years play so far?

The B2 Gorn and Romulan (and Orion) ships have lower plasma throw-weight levels, but their counterparts in (most) rival empires have less power to burn than in the Main Era...


As an aside, two of the playtest empires in the Omega file have plasma-like weapons; though in both cases, things would be that bit different than for Alpha plasma-chuckers. (Probr HEATs have the accentuation option for those able to line their HEAT-TA operations up, while the Trobrin have powerful direct-fire options to back up their distinct implosion torpedo arrays.)
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
storeylf wrote:
The issue I mentioned with Roms is that the cloak is of variable effectiveness in random matchups, in some matchups the fact that you have a smaller ship for the points is made up by the cloak, in others it isn't. That makes them dubious in an all comers tourney style setting. I like the roms, but in that type of game I tend to avoid them for that reason and nothing to do with plasma. If you are playing scenarios or properly thought out campaigns, then yes it should be less of an issue.


Would you be interested in testing this out? 450 pt PBEM game, you take Romulans and I take Kzinti, Lyran, Klingon, Orion, WYN, or ISC. We can probably get terryoc as moderator.


Lol. test what out. I stated I tend to be wary of roms due to the cloak and not being sure whether it is going to be of use in a random matchup, and not because of the plasma. I know why I only rarely take them, I don't need to test that statement.

The reason I tend to avoid roms is that if you turn up to such a fight and find ESG/Drones on the far side then you find that a good portion of your points (the cloaks) is largely moot and you are effectively left with CA vs CL matchups, All the races you mention have some decent counter cloak devices, so exactly what are you testing, that Roms suffer from cloaks or plasma? It appears to me that despite you bolding the plasma part you would merely be testing my assertion that Roms suffer paying for cloaks in many matchups.

If you want to test out plasma with me then here's a counter proposal. Play online using the online client, and lets play a number of games ranging from 1 vs 1 duels with small ships all the way up to DNs and then some squadron duels. I'll play Gorns/Roms/plas Orions/ISC and you play through all the non-plasma races (not sure why you avoided Feds/hydran in the above list), We'll play both historical matchups and non-historical matchups. It may take a few months playing a variety of matches, but it will eventually give us a better idea of where the strengths or weaknesses are. Things like whether plasma races are suffering as much due to non-plasma issues as plasma issues etc, which races have the best/hardest time against which plasma users, is 1 vs 1 or duels more an issue, or size of ships etc etc.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to see that storeylf and mojo. I would even be happy to play as the non Romulan/ Gorn. Would be nice to stop hearing assertions ttthat the plasma racesw are fine or broken and get some real figures.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Lol. test what out. I stated I tend to be wary of roms due to the cloak and not being sure whether it is going to be of use in a random matchup, and not because of the plasma. I know why I only rarely take them, I don't need to test that statement.

The reason I tend to avoid roms is that if you turn up to such a fight and find ESG/Drones on the far side then you find that a good portion of your points (the cloaks) is largely moot and you are effectively left with CA vs CL matchups, All the races you mention have some decent counter cloak devices, so exactly what are you testing, that Roms suffer from cloaks or plasma? It appears to me that despite you bolding the plasma part you would merely be testing my assertion that Roms suffer paying for cloaks in many matchups.

If you want to test out plasma with me then here's a counter proposal. Play online using the online client, and lets play a number of games ranging from 1 vs 1 duels with small ships all the way up to DNs and then some squadron duels. I'll play Gorns/Roms/plas Orions/ISC and you play through all the non-plasma races (not sure why you avoided Feds/hydran in the above list), We'll play both historical matchups and non-historical matchups. It may take a few months playing a variety of matches, but it will eventually give us a better idea of where the strengths or weaknesses are. Things like whether plasma races are suffering as much due to non-plasma issues as plasma issues etc, which races have the best/hardest time against which plasma users, is 1 vs 1 or duels more an issue, or size of ships etc etc.



Clearly this is at least 6 races that you don't feel comfortable with Roms in playing. That's a large number. I would also be happy in playing Feds/Hydrans/Selts vs Roms as well. Now if you think plasma is fine but it's the cloaking device that's the problem, then play Gorn or Orion with all Plasma mounts. I think they'd get destroyed just as badly. The ISC doesn't count because their primary weapon is PPD and the plasma is just to keep the opponent away unless you want to play an ISC fleet with no PPDs.

I don't do online, but it looks like Savedfromwhat is willing. Why don't you arrange a matchup? Either 1 on 1 or 450 pts vs 450 pts since they seem to be the most popular formats for pickup games.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
The ISC doesn't count because their primary weapon is PPD and the plasma is just to keep the opponent away unless you want to play an ISC fleet with no PPDs.


They do count for exactly that reason. You seem to want to show plasma is bad, therefore playing as many plasma using races as possible is the best way to go, it helps iron out other factors like the cloak, or gorns bizarre phasers and terrible turn modes or orion stealth/engine doubling etc.

Equally you want to be playing a number of games at varying points sizes and against various opponents.

If saved wants to engage in such an activity then I'm happy to oblige.

PS any reason in particular you don't play online?
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
They do count for exactly that reason. You seem to want to show plasma is bad, therefore playing as many plasma using races as possible is the best way to go, it helps iron out other factors like the cloak, or gorns bizarre phasers and terrible turn modes or orion stealth/engine doubling etc.

Equally you want to be playing a number of games at varying points sizes and against various opponents.

If saved wants to engage in such an activity then I'm happy to oblige.

PS any reason in particular you don't play online?


No, I think I've made it quite clear that I only think Plasma is bad when it's your primary heavy weapon. In fact, I clearly stated in post 2 of this thread that ISC was one place where plasma was very useful.

I don't play online because it's a huge time sink. I already have friends who want me to join a MMORPG or play VASL. PBEM is much better for me because it can be done at leisure with no time pressures.

In any case, it wouldn't hurt for us to play a 450 vs 450 tournament game PBEM where you take Rom/Gorn/Orion with all Plasma mounts and I take a direct fire race.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
storeylf wrote:
They do count for exactly that reason. You seem to want to show plasma is bad, therefore playing as many plasma using races as possible is the best way to go, it helps iron out other factors like the cloak, or gorns bizarre phasers and terrible turn modes or orion stealth/engine doubling etc.

Equally you want to be playing a number of games at varying points sizes and against various opponents.

If saved wants to engage in such an activity then I'm happy to oblige.

PS any reason in particular you don't play online?


No, I think I've made it quite clear that I only think Plasma is bad when it's your primary heavy weapon. In fact, I clearly stated in post 2 of this thread that ISC was one place where plasma was very useful.


I was referring to your mention of playing ISC without PPDs. Hence it would be their primary heavy weapon, it would help rule out cloaks from the equation, and gorns bad phaser arcs and orion stealth/engine rules etc.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I was referring to your mention of playing ISC without PPDs. Hence it would be their primary heavy weapon, it would help rule out cloaks from the equation, and gorns bad phaser arcs and orion stealth/engine rules etc.

There are multiple ISC ships without PPDs, including all of the smaller stuff. The ISC are a good test case because, even though they turn like Gorns, they have much more aggressive phaser arcs like the Romulans. With no cloak.

Specifically, the ISC that should be used are the CAT, CL, and all of the destroyers and smaller. (If the CAT isn't in the game, just take the CA and replace the single PPD with a single Pl-S, giving it three Pl-S total. It serves as a good plasma-only heavy battlecruiser approximate.)

EDIT:
Also on the Romulans, if you want to truly experiment, multiply their point values by .85 and remove the cloaking device. That should, in theory, give you a weighted point value without cloak.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I was referring to your mention of playing ISC without PPDs. Hence it would be their primary heavy weapon, it would help rule out cloaks from the equation, and gorns bad phaser arcs and orion stealth/engine rules etc.


That sounds reasonable to me. The 2 viable ISC fleets with this restriction seem to be 2 CL + 2 FF or 2 CAT + 1 FF at 446 and 443 pts respectively.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly up for playing a series of games like this online.

I'm less interested about PBEM for this sort of thing as so far with PBEM I've personally found it plays so differently to a normal game (certainly enjoyable but also different). Not to mention if I'm going to do this I want to play a number of games at different sizes and racial matchups to get a good average feel as to what works best/worst etc. I don't see much value in a single game in an odd format for this sort of excercise.

So i suppose it is down to SavedFromWhat (or anyone else I suppose) - are you interested in looking to set up some sort of regular play session and schedule of games of that type?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

The ISC are a good test case because, even though they turn like Gorns, they have much more aggressive phaser arcs like the Romulans. With no cloak.


More aggressive phasers but less aggressive plasmas. The ISC cruisers seem to get couple of Pl-S up front and Pl-Fs to the back (with limited fire rates) but the gorn get all their plasma capable of forward firing and carronade options.

It's why i'd like to play all the plasma capable races in such a test project, see what factors contribute to success or failure.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the 2 keys against plasma are:

1) Never go less than 24 unless he's nearly out of plasma

2) Don't get scared off by plasma. In a typical tournament squadron from a non-plasma race, their phasers can chew up 50-70 pts of plasma at 1 hex range. Force the plasma player to shoot more than that much plasma to chase you away. Anything less than 3 PL-S or 2 PL-S and 2 PL-F at moderate range should just be shot with phasers. Your disrupter/photon/pc/hellbore/ppd should still maintain at least parity with his phasers. Once he's out of plasma, you can massacre him at will.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Also on the Romulans, if you want to truly experiment, multiply their point values by .85 and remove the cloaking device. That should, in theory, give you a weighted point value without cloak.


If we did that, here are some costs with no cloak:

Name Cost
CNH 224
NHK 163
FHK 152
KE 119
SPH 115
SKH 87
BH 75

The CNH at 224 is clearly superior to the Gorn DN at 229. More PH1 plus 2 PL-D and significantly more power.

NHK at 163 should be comparable to Gorn BC/CM/CC/CS all at 160-164. It's got better shielding and more power plus better turn mode, so I'd say it's better than the Gorn equivalent, although not by that much.

FHK at 152 should be comparable to ISC CL at 150. It has 2 offensive F vs 4 defensive F, slightly better phasers, and more power although it's a move 1 vs move .75 ship. It also has significantly better shielding. I'd say the FHK is better than the CL.

KE at 119 should be comparable to the Gorn CL at 122. 1 R, 2 F, and 4 PH1 vs 2 S, 2 F, 4 PH1. KE has significantly more power and better shielding, but move 1 vs move .75. KE is probably about equal to CL.

SPH at 115 should be comparable to Gorn HDD at 117. 1 S, 2 F, and 5 PH1 vs 1 S, 2 F, and 5 PH1. Shielding and power are similar, but SPH is more maneuverable. Slight edge to SPH.

SKH at 87 should be slightly weaker than ISC DD at 92. 2 F and 4 PH1 vs 2 F and 4 PH1. Same shielding, SKH more maneuverable but DD has 2 rear PL-F. I think the difference in pricing is ok.

BH at 75 vs ISC FF at 73 should be comparable. BH has 2 G and 4 PH1 vs 2 F and 4 PH1. BH has significantly more power and better shielding, but FF is far more maneuverable and has .25 move vs .5 move for the BH. I'd give the overall edge to the BH, but it's not huge.

Overall, I think 15% is probably too big of a discount. Perhaps 10-12% or so
should be the "true" discount.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

15% discount would seem to fit in roughly with what orions pay for a cloak.

Maybe its down to the fact that you believe plasma is overrated, hence you presumably see the Gorn/ISC as being overpointed, and in fact the Romulans you just looked at are at an appropiate (or nearer) point value after all. Thats another thing to look at playing around with then if someone is up to it.
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