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Am I doomed as a Romulan?
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey StoreyLF I know you are across the pond as they say (or I am, whichever it is) so scheduling may be tough but if we can hack out a time should be good. I think I am -6 GMT at the moment.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on what times during the day you are free to play.

If work or whatever pushes you into evenings for playing then Friday/Saturday evenings are probably best for me, as I have no worries about what time I need to get up the following morning so I don't mind playing through the early hours so much. If you can start playng earlier, then midweek isn't so bad if we can be finshing not to far into the early hours (my end).
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
15% discount would seem to fit in roughly with what orions pay for a cloak.

Maybe its down to the fact that you believe plasma is overrated, hence you presumably see the Gorn/ISC as being overpointed, and in fact the Romulans you just looked at are at an appropiate (or nearer) point value after all. Thats another thing to look at playing around with then if someone is up to it.


I don't think 15% for the Cloak is a good deal for Orions. In fact, I haven't actually seen one take it in a tournament yet which is a good sign that it's overpriced.

If you believe that Gorn/ISC prices are correct, then it should be pretty obvious that the discount should be less than 15% since the Romulan equivalent is usually lightly to moderately superior to the equal point Gorn/ISC.

Lowering BPV for plasma might fix things, but it would be a nightmare trying to figure out how much. While I'm confident that a 450 pt non-plasma squadron should be able to beat the 450 pt plasma squadron most of the time, there is obviously some breakpoint where an 450+X point plasma squadron is better.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

I don't think 15% for the Cloak is a good deal for Orions. In fact, I haven't actually seen one take it in a tournament yet which is a good sign that it's overpriced.


I don't generally think cloaks are worth it on orions, for the same reason as I think romulans suffer for having a cloak - it is to random in its effect, you either have a brilliantly cheap advantage or a more or less total waste of points. As noted I dislike that sort of pre-game gamble (I mean for random matchups obviously.

That, however, is beside the point, We aren't considering whether the cloak is worth it at this point, that's a seperate variable and can be discussed/tested at another time. We are interested in how much the Romulan BPV has been adjusted for having it. If MWest is saying multiply by 0.85 for a good approximate (which is approximately the orion adjustment) then that is the cloak adjustment, and hence you go with that to approximate a non-cloaked Romulan.

Quote:

If you believe that Gorn/ISC prices are correct, then it should be pretty obvious that the discount should be less than 15% since the Romulan equivalent is usually lightly to moderately superior to the equal point Gorn/ISC.


See above, we are not discussing whether cloaks are worth it anymore, but how much the Romulan BPV was adjusted for in the first place. As noted earlier it may be that the 'cloak removed' cost of Roms may be a more accurate bpv than either Gorns or ISC and it is them that are wrong.

Ultimately the point of the exercise is to decide how good/bad the plasma races are against non-plasma races, not against each other. If you want to decide whether the adjusted cost is fair or not then determine that based on reference to non-plasma ships. We aren't overly interested in how an uncloaked FHK compares to an ISC CL, but how it compares to a Fed NCA or D5W.

For the record, I believe that some gorns/isc are probably about right, and some are wrong. e.g I think the Gorn CL is near enough right, whilst the I think the BC is overpointed for a CA. I see the BC (as an 'old' CA) as being a reasonable match for the other 'old' CAs and should be pointed accordingly. Why a ship with that turn mode and phaser arcs is rated so much higher than other CAs is beyond me.


Quote:

Lowering BPV for plasma might fix things, but it would be a nightmare trying to figure out how much. While I'm confident that a 450 pt non-plasma squadron should be able to beat the 450 pt plasma squadron most of the time, there is obviously some breakpoint where an 450+X point plasma squadron is better.


If you are correct and plasma empires need a fix then yes, a BPV fix would be the best thing IMO rather than a game change. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with better values if you get enough people testing out various matchups and seeing what works out as an even match.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why the point costs are as they are is that they come from SFB, and presumably the cost of the Gorn BC is right in SFB (or close enough not to matter). No point in arguing about the FC point costs, they are what they are.

Another thing to understand is that an Empire is balanced against its historical neighbours/opponents, not against everybody. There will be rock-paper-scissors situations and there is nothing to be done about that.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
The reason why the point costs are as they are is that they come from SFB, and presumably the cost of the Gorn BC is right in SFB (or close enough not to matter). No point in arguing about the FC point costs, they are what they are.

Another thing to understand is that an Empire is balanced against its historical neighbours/opponents, not against everybody. There will be rock-paper-scissors situations and there is nothing to be done about that.


I'm not sure all points costs come from SFB - I'm sure ISC PPDs were not exactly the same as ISC plasma. This isn't SFB but a game in its own right and should be balanced in its own right as there may well be players like me who couldn't care about SFB. Note I'm not arguing about it as I know it isn't going to change, but just noting my opinion. In reality I generally accept that ships within 10% of each other are probably about even (with a few known badly under costed ships making life difficult).

Yes I accept that balance should be based on historical matchups, and it isn't really possible to balance ships all round in a game with so many permutations.

On the other hand (and again, just my opinion knowing it isn't going to change anything). I'd have prefered to avoid the false sense of accuracy in the points. Fed NCA = 150 D5W=148 Kzin NCA = 140, all historical opponents, all new cruisers, Is a Fed NCA really 1.35% better than a D5W and 7.14% better than a Kzin NCA? I would have much prefered a system that didn't try and pretend to be that accurate but instead just took all ships of the same category that should be a roughly equal match and gave them the same value. Make all the above ships 150 pts and accept its may not be precisely accurate for some matchups. It would have been just as accurate as porting points from SFB given how much has changed, and avoided the idea that the points were somehow meant to be an ultra accurate value to within a fraction of 1%.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My suggested "fix" for plasma:

Any ship with plasma torpedoes as its only heavy weapons is entitled to a 10% discount in BPV provided no unit on its side has any heavy weapon other than plasma torpedoes.

Orion ships operate under the previous restriction and furthermore are only entitled to the 10% discount if more than half their (non-"drone") plasma eligible option mounts have plasma torpedoes selected. It is possible for a fleet of Orion ships to have some with the discount and some without.


Obviously the 10% number is a WAG, but testing should determine a proper number.
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I don't generally think cloaks are worth it on orions, for the same reason as I think romulans suffer for having a cloak - it is to random in its effect, you either have a brilliantly cheap advantage or a more or less total waste of points. As noted I dislike that sort of pre-game gamble (I mean for random matchups obviously.


Just out of curiosity, who do you consider a cloak to be a "brilliantly cheap advantage" against? And who do you think it's a more or less total waste of points?

storeylf wrote:

That, however, is beside the point, We aren't considering whether the cloak is worth it at this point, that's a seperate variable and can be discussed/tested at another time. We are interested in how much the Romulan BPV has been adjusted for having it. If MWest is saying multiply by 0.85 for a good approximate (which is approximately the orion adjustment) then that is the cloak adjustment, and hence you go with that to approximate a non-cloaked Romulan.


Mike was probably estimating. However, we can clearly compare 15% discounted BPV Rom ships to their nearest equivalent and the Roms are generally clearly superior at that discount level.

storeylf wrote:

See above, we are not discussing whether cloaks are worth it anymore, but how much the Romulan BPV was adjusted for in the first place. As noted earlier it may be that the 'cloak removed' cost of Roms may be a more accurate bpv than either Gorns or ISC and it is them that are wrong.


It's tricky to say that Gorn/ISC is wrong. ISC plasma ships are clearly a good purchase at existing BPV when supporting PPD ships. Similarly, a Gorn ship is probably a decent purchase when supporting some Fed/Kzinti ships since it forces the opposition to move 24 or take a lot of damage. For Roms to be better than Gorn/ISC is probably a good sign that 15% is too steep.

storeylf wrote:

Ultimately the point of the exercise is to decide how good/bad the plasma races are against non-plasma races, not against each other. If you want to decide whether the adjusted cost is fair or not then determine that based on reference to non-plasma ships. We aren't overly interested in how an uncloaked FHK compares to an ISC CL, but how it compares to a Fed NCA or D5W.


Again, you can't just compare plasma to non-plasma without considering the interactions against other plasma or when working with non-plasma ships. If you set a Rom FHK at 152, there will be situations when it faces off with an ISC CL at 150 or a Gorn BC at 160.

storeylf wrote:

If you are correct and plasma empires need a fix then yes, a BPV fix would be the best thing IMO rather than a game change. It shouldn't be that hard to come up with better values if you get enough people testing out various matchups and seeing what works out as an even match.


See my above post.
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semperatis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me,I found that the only way that you could get the cloak to work properly was to use,as SFB did long ago,pre-plotted hidden movement. You placed the cloak counter on the board when you faded out,and from then on,the ship was,to all intents and purposes,invisible. The cloak counter was only used to represent the last known location of the ship,it didn't move from then on.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

Just out of curiosity, who do you consider a cloak to be a "brilliantly cheap advantage" against? And who do you think it's a more or less total waste of points?


I was referring to individual matchups, rather than races in the general sense. e.g. some (but not all) hydran forces seriously struggle against cloaks. Lyrans are problematic. Plasma forces are, ironically, amongst the worst, they get to fire plasma as you uncloak whilst you are still at base speed 16 and you won't get to fire direct fire weapons for a couple of impulses or your own seekers till the following impulse.

Quote:

Mike was probably estimating. However, we can clearly compare 15% discounted BPV Rom ships to their nearest equivalent and the Roms are generally clearly superior at that discount level.


I assume he has a better idea of how Rom points were determined than either of us, and it does fit in very well with orion cloaks. Again though the point is not to decide whether cloaks are worth X, Y or Z, but to get an approximate of what points were given to them for having a cloak. If you testing whether plasma are good or bad in the current game you test whether plasma is good or bad with the existing points rather than start guessing at other variables.

Quote:

It's tricky to say that Gorn/ISC is wrong. ISC plasma ships are clearly a good purchase at existing BPV when supporting PPD ships. Similarly, a Gorn ship is probably a decent purchase when supporting some Fed/Kzinti ships since it forces the opposition to move 24 or take a lot of damage. For Roms to be better than Gorn/ISC is probably a good sign that 15% is too steep.


Are you really saying that we should be pointing ships based on what other races they might get paired with! I can sort of see a case for ISC supporting ISC ships, but the idea that you point gorns on the basis of pairing them up with Kzin !!. I ought to be able to take a Gorn ships in a 1 vs 1 duel and have a reasonable idea it is a rough match for my opponent. I should be able to choose my tourney squadron knowing it is a rough match for my opponents. I shouldn't be thinking that I have to take a Kzin ship to make my gorn ship worth its points. I would be extremely surprised if inter racial pairings have any bearing on ship costs. You seem to think gorns or plasma ISC will get beaten by any 450pt non-plasma squadron, are you not therefore of the opinion that Gorn/ISC are badly pointed?

Again though you are missing the point. You don't pre-judge whether the points are wrong or right, you test what you have and see how things pan out. How the roms without cloaks compare to gorns or ISC is not what we are testing. Even if it were we would not be pre-judging whether the cloak should be as valuable as we have been told it was considered to be (and the rules seems to think it is when given to other ships), you play a variety of matches with what you currently have to obtain the hard data to support or otherwise your proposition, then you can start to adjust if neccesary.

Quote:

Again, you can't just compare plasma to non-plasma without considering the interactions against other plasma or when working with non-plasma ships. If you set a Rom FHK at 152, there will be situations when it faces off with an ISC CL at 150 or a Gorn BC at 160.


The point of your argument is that plasma is weak against non-plasma. The test would be whether it is or isn't balanced against non-plamsa. Bear in mind that all the plasma races would be tested and therefore possibly subject to some sort of balance change, trying to adjust roms by comparison to gorns is therefore rather bad, you've not only compared it to something that misses the point of the argument and test, you've compared it to something that may be changed (directly or indirectly) afterwards. By biasing the points to Gorns/ISC you are effectively biasing the results of any such test, you've essentially said that you think gorn are weak because of their plasma and will get beaten by non-plasma in a 450pt duel, adjusting uncloaked roms to the same 'value' would seem to be biasng any such testing to the same. If we do such a test then just leave the points as they have been described and see what happens. If it turns out after testing that no-cloak roms are stronger than gorns or ISC then that it is useful data in its own right.

Ultimately you would want the various plasma races to be balanced, but bear in mind we aren't balancing no-cloak romulans to Gorns because in the game no-cloak romunlans don't exist. The interest in playing romulans like that (as well as standard romulans) would just be to see how they do as a plasma race if they don't use cloaks and didn't have to pay for them, as it removes what is quite a large variable. Of course you woud also test normal romulans as well as that may indicate whether real romulans are in fact balanced or not as they are.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

semperatis wrote:
To me,I found that the only way that you could get the cloak to work properly was to use,as SFB did long ago,pre-plotted hidden movement. You placed the cloak counter on the board when you faded out,and from then on,the ship was,to all intents and purposes,invisible. The cloak counter was only used to represent the last known location of the ship,it didn't move from then on.


IMHO hidden movement was too powerful in SFB. Lots of fun and there were some great scenarios built around it, but we always increased the BPV of cloaked ships when using that rule. The best thing about the cloak was that you could dictate the entire pace of the battle.

Romulans were very balanced in SFB. There were some "rock-paper-scissors" matchups (Andros, Hydrans and LDR slightly disadvantageous; disruptor races slightly advantageous) but it was more of a +/- 5% advantage at best.

I have my first FC Romulan fight coming up this saturday. We'll see how it goes!
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

Ultimately you would want the various plasma races to be balanced, but bear in mind we aren't balancing no-cloak romulans to Gorns because in the game no-cloak romunlans don't exist. The interest in playing romulans like that (as well as standard romulans) would just be to see how they do as a plasma race if they don't use cloaks and didn't have to pay for them, as it removes what is quite a large variable. Of course you woud also test normal romulans as well as that may indicate whether real romulans are in fact balanced or not as they are.


The most advantageous plasma ships to fly are the ISC plasma boats. Excellent phaser suites, good power, durable hulls and good firing arcs. They have high BPVs, but that should be telling whether they can hold up to direct fire opposition relying purely on plasma and phasers.

Gorns would be second best (plenty of power, strong phase suite, durable ships) but their turn modes and firing arcs make them an interesting ship to fly. The subtle advantage in SFB of not being to damage non-facing phasers was a help to the Gorn when the internals started rolling in.

Playing the Orions would tell you if increasing the power curve on the plasma ship would help (I don't think it will, but the results should be telling one way of the other).

Flying Rom will tell you if cloak mitigates the (perceived) weakness of plasma. I don't think flying a cloak-less Rom will be as useful because the other traditional plasma races have very durable ships and the Romulans tend to be much more fragile. There is a reason they called it the "Gorn Anchor". (Rom's can do it too, but their ship looks a lot worse afterwards.)
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mojo jojo
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
I was referring to individual matchups, rather than races in the general sense. e.g. some (but not all) hydran forces seriously struggle against cloaks. Lyrans are problematic. Plasma forces are, ironically, amongst the worst, they get to fire plasma as you uncloak whilst you are still at base speed 16 and you won't get to fire direct fire weapons for a couple of impulses or your own seekers till the following impulse.


IOW, there's maybe 1 matchup where cloak is worth the points and a whole lotta of them (probably the vast majority) where it's just a point sink. Even in that 1 "favorable" matchup, I still don't see any Orion choosing to pay 15% since IMO he'd be better off getting a bigger hull or better weapons with those points.


storeylf wrote:
I assume he has a better idea of how Rom points were determined than either of us, and it does fit in very well with orion cloaks. Again though the point is not to decide whether cloaks are worth X, Y or Z, but to get an approximate of what points were given to them for having a cloak. If you testing whether plasma are good or bad in the current game you test whether plasma is good or bad with the existing points rather than start guessing at other variables.


Unless he weighs in with an official answer, we can only go by comparison to existing ships. And a Rom with 15% discount is better than existing ships at the point value.

storeylf wrote:
Are you really saying that we should be pointing ships based on what other races they might get paired with! I can sort of see a case for ISC supporting ISC ships, but the idea that you point gorns on the basis of pairing them up with Kzin !!. I ought to be able to take a Gorn ships in a 1 vs 1 duel and have a reasonable idea it is a rough match for my opponent. I should be able to choose my tourney squadron knowing it is a rough match for my opponents. I shouldn't be thinking that I have to take a Kzin ship to make my gorn ship worth its points. I would be extremely surprised if inter racial pairings have any bearing on ship costs. You seem to think gorns or plasma ISC will get beaten by any 450pt non-plasma squadron, are you not therefore of the opinion that Gorn/ISC are badly pointed?

Again though you are missing the point. You don't pre-judge whether the points are wrong or right, you test what you have and see how things pan out. How the roms without cloaks compare to gorns or ISC is not what we are testing. Even if it were we would not be pre-judging whether the cloak should be as valuable as we have been told it was considered to be (and the rules seems to think it is when given to other ships), you play a variety of matches with what you currently have to obtain the hard data to support or otherwise your proposition, then you can start to adjust if neccesary.


That's exactly what I'm saying, that points can differ based on who a ship is paired with. If we decide not to reduce ISC points because of their value in supporting PPD ships but we reduce other plasma points, then we do get a case of FHK at 152 vs ISC CL at 150. If we decide to reduce ISC points as well, then their PPD fleets get a major bargain when purchasing plasma escorts.


storeylf wrote:

The point of your argument is that plasma is weak against non-plasma. The test would be whether it is or isn't balanced against non-plamsa. Bear in mind that all the plasma races would be tested and therefore possibly subject to some sort of balance change, trying to adjust roms by comparison to gorns is therefore rather bad, you've not only compared it to something that misses the point of the argument and test, you've compared it to something that may be changed (directly or indirectly) afterwards. By biasing the points to Gorns/ISC you are effectively biasing the results of any such test, you've essentially said that you think gorn are weak because of their plasma and will get beaten by non-plasma in a 450pt duel, adjusting uncloaked roms to the same 'value' would seem to be biasng any such testing to the same. If we do such a test then just leave the points as they have been described and see what happens. If it turns out after testing that no-cloak roms are stronger than gorns or ISC then that it is useful data in its own right.

Ultimately you would want the various plasma races to be balanced, but bear in mind we aren't balancing no-cloak romulans to Gorns because in the game no-cloak romunlans don't exist. The interest in playing romulans like that (as well as standard romulans) would just be to see how they do as a plasma race if they don't use cloaks and didn't have to pay for them, as it removes what is quite a large variable. Of course you woud also test normal romulans as well as that may indicate whether real romulans are in fact balanced or not as they are.


In case you missed my suggested "fix" for plasma:

Any ship with plasma torpedoes as its only heavy weapons is entitled to a 10% discount in BPV provided no unit on its side has any heavy weapon other than plasma torpedoes.

Orion ships operate under the previous restriction and furthermore are only entitled to the 10% discount if more than half their (non-"drone") plasma eligible option mounts have plasma torpedoes selected. It is possible for a fleet of Orion ships to have some with the discount and some without.


Obviously the 10% number is a WAG, but testing should determine a proper number.

This change is elegant, simple, easy to understand, and should fix the problem without causing others once we determine what the proper discount level should be.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Unless he weighs in with an official answer, we can only go by comparison to existing ships.


No - we can also go with the known adjustemt for orions. And we don't go with our subjective opinions, because exactly like the plasma issue I was proposing testing, we will probably have different opinions.

Quote:
And a Rom with 15% discount is better than existing ships at the point value.


No - you think in a few cases they are better against a very restricted set of other ships that are not even relevant to the propsoed test in the first place .

Quote:
That's exactly what I'm saying, that points can differ based on who a ship is paired with.


Really ? [sarcasm]The points value of a ship is printed on my cards, it doesn't change because I pair it with another ship.[/sarcasm].

What evidence have you that Gorn ships, or Fed ships have in any way been pointed to account the endless combinations of who they might be paired with?

I'm personally going on the basis they have been pointed with no such consideration.

Quote:
If we decide not to reduce ISC points because of their value in supporting PPD ships ...


Who talking of doing that?

All I proposed was to play plasma ships against non-plasma ships to see how they fare. I even stated that for ISC I wouldn't be playing PPDs, as it is testing plasma I'm intereted in, and they provide another style of plasma armed ship to help iron various other attributes that might mask any potential plasma issues (e.g gorn phasers/ rom cloaks).

Quote:
In case you missed my suggested "fix" for plasma:


I didn't miss your 'fix' for plasma. You are indeed missing the point. The point is to do a decent test on the EXISTING system to see how good or badly plasma does against non-plasma, to check if there is indeed a problem.

Your fix is currently irrelevant, that is not what we are talking about. You have skipped the test and propsed a fix for a problem that may not exist. Even where it does exist it may only exist in certain cases - e.g Gorn only.



Quote:
This change ... should fix the problem without causing others once we determine what the proper discount level should be.


Again you are missing the point. It is not to start on the basis that we need a fix, it is to determine whether there is even a problem in the first place. Until you have some hard data across a range of scenarios you cannot propse any meaningfull fix.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:

IOW, there's maybe 1 matchup where cloak is worth the points and a whole lotta of them (probably the vast majority) where it's just a point sink. Even in that 1 "favorable" matchup, I still don't see any Orion choosing to pay 15% since IMO he'd be better off getting a bigger hull or better weapons with those points.


Huh, You asked for and example of where it is extremenly useful, I gave one and you spin that as being the only case of where it worth the points.

I'm not disputing that an orion woud buy a cloak in a random matchup game - though its 20% extra not 15%. Its besides the point though, if I'm going to test the plasma as they are in the current game then you test the existing system, and the cloak costs what it does no matter what you think it should be worth.

Ps i'd disagree with the orion getting a bigger hull etc in that 1 matchup. In the matchup I happened to be thinking about we had already played uncloaked orions vs those hydrans and they got utterly annihilated (more than once), whilst cloaked romulans had a relatively easy time.
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