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2nd FCOL Tournament Draft Rules: Please Review and Comment
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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That might not work, A five player tourney with 4 rounds would mean that in the final round one of the top 2 players who may be neck and neck and playing to win the tourney will have to take a 'draw' (as the other 3 will have already have had a bye) whist the other top player gets to play and possible win. That could be a serious downer.


Good point. Let's try this instead:

Except for the first round, when a "bye" is necessary it will awarded as a "draw" to the player with the lowest score at that time. If there is a tie for the lowest score, it will be awarded to the player with the lowest score that has received the lowest number of "byes". If there is still a tie, it will be awarded to one of the tied players by random selection by the GM.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Thinking about the point adjustments for Empires, I think the Gorn and Tholians should be switched. Tholians should probably be .96 and Gorns .92 (or at the very least, leave the Tholians and move the Gorns to .92). The Tholians have so many phasers that they could be unfairly advantaged as .92. Thoughts? Thanks,


The Romulans need to be ranked at a lower cost than the Gorns. Cloaking is of limited value in the tournament scenario. So, I do not favor changing the current level at which I have placed the Gorns.

However, if there is a consensus, I have no problem with moving the Tholians up from 0.92 to 0.96. I was 50/50 on making them 0.96 or 0.92. I think the Tholians are roughly equal to the Lyrans in the tournament scenario.

Note the Tholians are a little weak against the non-drone races because web generators are practically useless in those confrontations. So, I don't think the Tholians have an advantage over the Gorns even with those additional phasers.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimDauphinais wrote:

Except for the first round, when a "bye" is necessary it will awarded as a "draw" to the player with the lowest score at that time. If there is a tie for the lowest score, it will be awarded to the player with the lowest score that has received the lowest number of "byes". If there is still a tie, it will be awarded to one of the tied players by random selection by the GM.


The issue with that is that it is quite feasible for 1 player to keep getting a bye and ends up not playing as a 1 point draw doesn't pull him off the bottom, quite likely after a couple of rounds if he lost both games and is more than 1 point behind the next player. Awarding a win will be more likely to pull you up to the next player.

Difficult situation I know.

How about: - Award bye to the lowest score, but never 2 byes in succession (next lowest score on that case). Award a win for a bye. Even ask first if anyone wants to take a bye in the coming round, but only award a draw for that.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Note the Tholians are a little weak against the non-drone races because web generators are practically useless in those confrontations.


You don't think Web snares are useful? Web casters aren't that hot, but I think the Snares are pretty good.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unless I am forgetting something, using the web generators as web snares is only useful for brushing off drones in defensive fire. Hence, my comment.

Web Casters are potentially useful to cast webs and for Web Fists. They are useful regardless of whether your opponent has drones.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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gar1138
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Web snares will brush aside any seeking weapons (drones, plasma, suicide shuttles) that have impacted shields 2/3 or 5/6. Of course, you can only use them once per turn, but still.....

In fact, I'm thinking of giving the Tholians a try in this tourney. Smile

Garrett
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimDauphinais wrote:
I don't particularly like this idea because I don't want players gambling on whether or not the empire's ship and weapons point values will actually be raised following a warning. Also, it cound increase the number of times I have to increment up the factor slowing down the empire selection process (e.g., if everybody who selected that empire decides to play a game of "chicken" and hang on).

A player is either willing to accept the higher cost or not. If they are, then they will pay it. If not, they can choose another empire.


But everyone is suddenly at a higher cost with the Empire they chose. In this case I would think everyone would switch because they are suddenly down on points. Really, I like the point adjustments to balance the game, and this rule is designed to bring un-balance back in.

Maybe it would be better to just make a rule that no more than 25% of the players can be in one Empire. To facilitate this, let players send in a list of preferred Empires, in order of preference, and if too many are in one Empire, move a player randomly to their next choice.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand, but my concern is that if more than 25% of the players selected the same empire, it may be because a block of folks feel that empire is underpriced (and it very well may be). I'd rather raise the cost for everyone for that empire for those who would still select it at that higher price than have a lucky few get an underpriced empire such that they later dominate the tournament.

I guess I am being pretty stubborn on this issue Smile

I am willing to give on this issue if a good number of others would prefer something along the lines of what Eric has suggested. If not, I am probably going to invoke GM perogative on this particular matter.
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand your point as well... it is a little like odds in paramutuals. However, my last point on this are:

The point value is being debated on the forum, and these are our best guesses, which we all agree on. Perhaps a bunch of people are taking the same Empire because they all want to play that Empire, not because of an advantage, but they like that Empire. Simply having a bunch of people choose an Empire does not automatically mean its point value us wrong. I would like to see how they play out at these values as a scientific exercise.

Also, the object of these rules is to get people to try to play something different. Why does no one play Gorn? They are overpriced, and these rules address that, encouraging more people to give it a try. However, it should not discourage people from playing something they really want to. The tournament should above all be fun. Say I decided to play Kzinti, and I accepted the higher cost. Fine. But suddenly you raise the cost for me again, even if someone decides to change Empires? I would probably either change to another Empire, or even quit (well, I wouldn't quit, but some people have that temperament if they cannot move to a suitable alternate because that would make that alternate be overfilled).


Last edited by ericphillips on Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, those Web Snares do stop more than I thought! Even Plasma torpedoes. Based on that, I'd have no trouble moving the Tholians from 0.92 to 1.0 (leaving the Gorns at 0.96). Any thoughts on that?
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric -- Your points are good as well. Again, if others indicate they would prefer something along the lines of your approach, I'll cave in.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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gar1138
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimDauphinais wrote:
Well, those Web Snares do stop more than I thought! Even Plasma torpedoes. Based on that, I'd have no trouble moving the Tholians from 0.92 to 1.0 (leaving the Gorns at 0.96). Any thoughts on that?

Curses, my master plan is crushed! Smile Yeah, 1.0 is probably fine for the Tholians, we'll just have to play them to see how they do.

Garrett
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimDauphinais wrote:
Well, those Web Snares do stop more than I thought! Even Plasma torpedoes. Based on that, I'd have no trouble moving the Tholians from 0.92 to 1.0 (leaving the Gorns at 0.96). Any thoughts on that?


Even with being able to destroy plasma, the snares can only blast the seekers on one side once per turn, and do not cover the 1 and 4 shields. So, if an opponent staggers his seekers, he can overcome the snares. I think this balances it well. If I had my druthers, it would be 0.96, as I think, overall, they are slightly weaker to the 1.0 empires.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are dealing with a very subjective issue when it comes to handicapping. Different people may have different views on races for a variety of reasons. My views on a race may be very different to others simply due to differences in our regular opponents, or indeed our own (in)ability to use them (which we may be blind to).

I don't necessarily agree with some of your current handicap values, in particular I still think 10% is huge in effect. But I'd be interersted to see where such a system went over time.

I think the only way you can avoid a lot of discussion on what each race should or shoud not start this tourney on is to actually define the algorithm you would use if the tourney was to be repeated several times and you were going to adjust each race in light of the previous choices. You can then use the other still ongoing tourney as your starting point. You may or may not agree with the handicap that results, but at least it will have been defined by some public algorithm and based on actual previous choices, rather than subjective opinions.

e.g.
All races start at card value for this tourney, in future tourneys they start as they were in the previous tourney. Then adjust by the following

If in the last tourney:
A race did not make an appearance it receives a 2% discount.
If a race was choosen once leave as is.
If a race was choosen more than once the add 2% per appearance over 1.


If we take the last unfinished tourney we end up with:

Kzinti = 1.06
Fed = 1.04
Orion = 1.02
Lyran, Seltorian, Tholian = 1.00
Anyone else = 0.98.

I'd avoid larger adjustments, or races may swing from popular to not used. Just let the races gradually slide to a point where they seem to be fairly stable.

The adjustment doesn't need to be huge to have an affect. 1.06 for the Kzinti would have made all 4 previous kzinti choices in the last tourney illegal (indeed any choice in the last tourney would have to illegal, 1.06 means your max card points are 424).
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But again, just because people did or did not choose an Empire in one tourney is not enough data points for handicapping. For instance, most people feel Kligons are the most balanced Empire in the game (a definite 1.00). ut nobody played them in the last FCOL tourney. Why? Maybe no one felt like it.

I know that I played the Lyrans, which is why you gave them a 1.00 based on the last tourney. But I will tell you, it was a mistake to pay the Lyran on my part, which I really regretted. They are overpriced on the card.

At least by discussing our views on balance, we are using our experience with the races.

I think that there is more data that some races need balancing to encourage play based on a series of tourneys. Can we get info on what has been played at origins and so on?
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