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2nd FCOL Tournament:Information, Announcements and Deadlines
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Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would propose that we start off by simply increasing the maximum number of game turns to 10 to align it with the origins tournament. 6 turns is not enough. This is the first case of what SFB called "non-aggression" in 5 years of FC tournaments. The only reason we have a turn/time limit in the FC tournament was due to a 13 hour game at Origins about 4 years ago.

Nobody likes adjudicated games. I know Paul isn't crazy about them and frankly if you talk to the SFB judges, they don't like them either, it's simply a necessary evil in SFB tournaments. If we can avoid it in FC I think that is good.

Also, i think there is a weakness in the point system...it is not granular enough. There is a huge difference in the capabilities of a ships with 51% damage vice 99% damage, yet the point system only awards 50% of the value of the ship.
My opinion is that if this point system is more detailed, then it can be used more effectively to break ties and keep them to an absolute minimum. Combined with a 10 turn time limit vice 6 turns, I think we will have a fair system. if more adjustments rare needed in the future, we can make them.
Also, I believe points should ONLY be use if necessary and should only be applicable to the game being played to determine win/loss/tie outcomes. The points should not be cumulative over multiple games.

OTHER Tentative Suggestions: Perhaps we reduce the required 150 points to win down to perhaps 120 or something else agreeable.

I do really like Jim's set up with point value adjustments. We should keep that, I think the reasoning for it is obvious and sound.

The basis for the discussion must be, "what is the best solution for the sake of the tournament so that it is fair?" One person stating that they will not participate if a certain course of action is chosen is not necessarily a good argument against a certain course of action. Presumably, any set up could alienate a few people. That threat should not be used to end a discussion.

Well, thats my 2 cents.---Pat
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Doyle wrote:
I would propose that we start off by simply increasing the maximum number of game turns to 10 to align it with the origins tournament. 6 turns is not enough.


I'm easy on the number of turns in principle. But origins is a time limit not a turn limit that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure what you mean by align with origins.

In practise 10 turns is getting a bit long, that would almost certainly require multi sessions, and with time zone differences that starts to get awkward arranging times to complete such a game.

Is there any specific reason why 6 turns isn't enough? The only argument I've seen so far is that 'given more time I would have won' that doesn't appear much of an argment to me. The point is to win within a time limit. 6 turns was the limit. I'm not saying 6 is right or wrong, or 10 is right or wrong. I'm interested in why you think 6 is to short though.

Quote:

Also, i think there is a weakness in the point system...it is not granular enough. There is a huge difference in the capabilities of a ships with 51% damage vice 99% damage, yet the point system only awards 50% of the value of the ship.


Not entirely sure where you are heading with that, but the one thing I would like to avoid is the differentiating a 'slaughter' from a 'win'. I used to play another game years ago where various tournaments played around with giving more points depending on how decisive the win was. That just led to lots of people complaining that some forces were not competitive (or 'unbalanced') not because they coudn't win but because they tended to win by lesser margins. If you wanted to compete for top tourney spots you had to take a force that was likely to win big time, which just resulted in a very limited selection of forces appearing.

Quote:

The basis for the discussion must be, "what is the best solution for the sake of the tournament so that it is fair?" One person stating that they will not participate if a certain course of action is chosen is not necessarily a good argument against a certain course of action. Presumably, any set up could alienate a few people. That threat should not be used to end a discussion.


It's simply a statement of fact, not a threat, and I don't expect my statement to be some deciding factor, especially if I'm the only one who feels like that. As I said its not my ball to take home. If that's the game you all want to play then I'm not complaining. However, Paul stated his opinion on adjudicated games, I stated mine. Paul may feel happy enough to play even though he is not keen on the format, I prefer to play something I'll like, especially when we are talking about making a commitment to play a number of games over a prolonged period of time. I certainly don't expect that to be end of discussion for one moment.
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Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul and I Have competed our game. My congratulations to Paul for his victory.

I (Lyrans) started in the upper left corner, Paul (Hydrans) in the lower right corner.
Turn 1: Both sides went base spd 16. Lyrans accell'd several times while the Hydrans slipped left.
Lyrans turned right (south) to get lined up on the the Hydran centerline, then the Hydrans slipped to the right to avoid the centerline and more importantly to reduce closure. We ended the turn at range 16. We fired doing negligible damage. The Hydrans began evasive.

Turn 2: Both set speed 16. By accelerating, Lyrans got on the centerline.
We ended impulse 1 at range 11. Impulse 2, both accelerated and we ended at range 5.
Impulse 3, We both accelerated and he dropped evasive. I split my forces with the DN moving forward to engage from range 1. The CA and DW were at range 3, all facing the same Hydran shield #1. The Hydrans, moving after the L-DN could have ended the impulse at range 1 or range zero. He chose range 1. All 4 of his cruisers were in 1 hex.
firing with only 3 of his cruisers he wrecked the DN and crippled the DW. I fired everything, missing with a total of 7 of 13 disruptors...the DN missed with 3. Part of the plan was to concentrate overload fire on a couple ships while using weapon targeting on others. In the end, I'm not sure I could have done enough damage even with more DISR and targeted weapon hits.
This was an instance where the Simultaneous Decision rule is TOO unclear about who has to announce fire and in what order. Since only 3 of his ships could have fired it would be to my advantage to fire at the 4th ship so that its firepower would not be available. If the poker analogy is used for the process, the the rules at least need to state who opens the betting. This is one of those instances that it really does matter who is firing at who, but the rules state nothing about who must "open the betting".

Anyhow, while a couple hydran ships were damaged it wasn't bad enough for my force to recover.
Some will say i should have taken advantage of disruptors long ranage fire and saber danced around. That would be nice, but a determined enemy can always get an intercept if he chooses, and he would have been using evasive to minimize any damage from long range hits. eventually I would have been in a corner in a poor position to execute my attack. This force is simply a very very tough force.
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Patrick Doyle
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 201
Location: Norfolk, VA

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Origins is limited to 3 or 4 hours and 10 turns. Both Limitations exist in Origins. With only one exception, the time limit is what limits most origins games. I only know of one game that went 13 turns which was the reason why the time/turn limit was put in place.

Here is why i don't believe 10 turns will significantly lengthen the time to play a game. this is not an absolute, but in many cases, some of those turns will pass quickly as people maneuver to repair, reload, delay or whatever. When a game goes that many turns its because for whatever reason, decisive combat is avoided for a couple of those turns. A decisive turn is what takes a long time, decisive turns also tend to end the game quickly as someone usually come out with an advantage. Dancing around can usually go more quickly. That has been my experience, but its not a 100% certainty.

The increased turn limit reduces the odds of a game resulting in a tie. I hope we can agree that clear wins or losses are better than ties.

My point in suggesting that at sometime changing the point system MIGHT be considered is not to reward slaughters. It is to reduce the likelihood of ties. Ties complicate things and can lead to tie-breaker rounds being played that extend the tournament which is something that seems to concern people. Adjusting the point system is one possible way to do it, there are likely better ways out there....thus the discussion to come up with better ideas.

Also, there is nothing stopping players from simply agreeing to play 4 hours and calling it. Paul and I had agreed to ignore the 6 turn limit. In the end, as long as both players report the same result for a game, I am not going to demand to see the transcripts from their game. For really difficult situations, we have judges to decide. Of course people dropping out of a game is unfortunate, but real life sometimes interfere's with our gaming.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, it sounds like Paul did pretty much exactly what I was trying to do in our game, though pulled it off better (the different, bulkier, ships probably helped more as well). 7 missed disrupters didn't hurt though, I dont remember being that lucky Sad

When I was pondering our game afterwards I couldn't help but think that a more strict approach to the fire declaration (or more thought by me as to how much to declare in each step) would have helped me considerably, as you wouldn't have been able to nobble the ship I held back.

The online client provides one possible answer I think. Set up your fire order in the client then click the button simultaneously. That way neither side gets an edge, and you can then both ponder 'me to' if allowed. OK - thats simultaneous, not quite the same, but given we have to set all that up in the client anyway...
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I too am not a fan of the FC "me too" system. I strongly prefer SFB's S&S. But it is what was built into the game, so it is what it is - don't think it is going to change anytime soon. I think it comes from the mistaken belief that it speeds the game up.
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 756
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Round 4 Results as of 5/15/2011:

Code:
  Match   Player 1                          Player 2                      Won           Lost
  -----   --------                          --------                      ---           ----
   4-1    Patrick Doyle   (Lyran)       vs  Paul Scott      (Hydran)      Paul Scott    Patrick Doyle
   4-2    JimDauphinais   (Gorn)        vs  Archer          (Federation)
   4-3    Storeylf        (Hydran)      vs  VulcanDropout   (Romulan)
   4-4    orgyockbo       (Tholian)     vs  Jiraiya1969     (Klingon)
   4-5    Krellex         (Klingon      vs  Mojo_billbo     (Federation)
   4-6    ericphillips    (Frax)        vs  Brazouck        (Federation)
   4-7    gar1138         (Tholian)     vs  Bye             (N/A)         Draw          Draw


All matches need to be completed and reported to Garrett and I by Friday, June 10th.

Thanks,

Jim
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St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My hydrans beat Vulcan Dropouts Romulans.

Very interesting game, I thought I was struggling at one point - those Roms are just swimming in energy (relative to mine at any rate). Trying to chase him down with energy left to shoot, whilst watching out for putting my self in a bad plasma spot was not that easy. Finally managed to get to range 2 with a 3 of my ships coming in from different directions in the back half of the game which left him in a more or less hopeless position after the dust settled.
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VulcanDropout
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:52 pm    Post subject: Hydran Fleet victorous against Romulans Reply with quote

Storyelf defeated my ships

Turn 1 involved r25 phaser fire.
Turn 2, I launched 3 Pl-S. Two at one of his mongols and 1 at the other. The mongols with 2 pl-S turned off, the one with one did not. We manuevered a lot that turn, with my trying to keep the range open but not get cornered and with him trying to not let the S hit too soon while staying close to me. We did 24+1 most of the turn.

I phasered or pl-D 6 of his 8 fighters and he dented the #6 shield on the SpH-A, dented even more the #5 shield on SpH-M and dropped SpH-M's #4. He had not fired his fusions or hellbores. Late in the turn, he turned up the mongol and phasered the two plasmas on impulse 8. The impacted turn 3 for 5 points. Also, my 2 last left side plasma D killed off the remaining 2 fighters.

In turn 3, despite my efforts to evade, I ended up with one mongol 2 hexes off my #6 and the 2 rhinos 2 hexes off my #4. The mongol dropped a shield on my SpH-A and the Rhinos fired 4 standard hellbores at it. All hit. The rhinos also fired phasers at the sp-M 5 point shield 4.

I fired back with phasers. I seriously cripped a rhino (it was a flying phaser-G with 5 shields) and did 25 or so internals to the mongol. He had seriously crippled both sparrowhawks. I think they had 5 or 6 power each and few weapons. If I went speed zero, I could have fast loaded an F on each and the A could have launched a normal F.

But, his other mongol was still in my rear and one of the rhinos hadn't fired its ph-Gs. At this point, I conceeded.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was an extra turn in there somewhere - it was turn 4 when I finally caught you. Turn 2 was mainly closing from 25 with me dropping stingers at the back end, so probably that and turn 3 merged into one.

If you hadn't conceded when you did, you could have lanuched your remaining (S and two Fs) plasma at impulse end at the damaged mongol and done a fair bit more damage, but not enough to make up for what your situation was. I had decided that the mongol had to take the potential punishment in order to try and stop you running (hence all my aiming at power).

(Ps 6 fighters, not 8. Yup they didn't last long against those Ds, but hopefully again they helped stop you turning their way whilst my other ships were trying to pull round on you).

Definately the most interesting game in the tourney so far for me.
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terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have thought Gatlings would be pretty good against Plasma-Ds. Four phaser-3 shots defensively is 12-16 points of damage, or 6-8 points of degradation to the D's warhead, knocking it down to 2 or 4 points if it hits at full strength.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1843

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup - gatlings are good against the first Pl-D, by the time you are looking at the second, third and fourth volley in the same turn things are getting a bit hairy.

I think I actually ended up losing most of my fighters to phaser fire in the end, the D's killed a couple, but they kept my stingers reasonably at bay whilst absorbing most of the gatling fire.
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 756
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Round 4 Results as of 5/18/2011:

Code:
  Match   Player 1                          Player 2                      Won           Lost
  -----   --------                          --------                      ---           ----
   4-1    Patrick Doyle   (Lyran)       vs  Paul Scott      (Hydran)      Paul Scott    Patrick Doyle
   4-2    JimDauphinais   (Gorn)        vs  Archer          (Federation)
   4-3    Storeylf        (Hydran)      vs  VulcanDropout   (Romulan)     Storeylf      VulcanDropout
   4-4    orgyockbo       (Tholian)     vs  Jiraiya1969     (Klingon)
   4-5    Krellex         (Klingon      vs  Mojo_billbo     (Federation)
   4-6    ericphillips    (Frax)        vs  Brazouck        (Federation)
   4-7    gar1138         (Tholian)     vs  Bye             (N/A)         Draw          Draw


All matches need to be completed and reported to Garrett and I by Friday, June 10th.

Thanks,

Jim
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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VulcanDropout
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject: Gatling vs plasma D Reply with quote

Yes, because the fighters were shooting down the plasma, I could get close and only get hit by fusion and a few phaser 3.

I think only the last two fighters were killed off by plasma-D. The others were weakened. Not sure on that, though.
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 756
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Round 4 Results as of 5/24/2011:

Code:
  Match   Player 1                          Player 2                      Won           Lost
  -----   --------                          --------                      ---           ----
   4-1    Patrick Doyle   (Lyran)       vs  Paul Scott      (Hydran)      Paul Scott    Patrick Doyle
   4-2    JimDauphinais   (Gorn)        vs  Archer          (Federation)
   4-3    Storeylf        (Hydran)      vs  VulcanDropout   (Romulan)     Storeylf      VulcanDropout
   4-4    orgyockbo       (Tholian)     vs  Jiraiya1969     (Klingon)     orgyockbo     Jiraiya1969
   4-5    Krellex         (Klingon      vs  Mojo_billbo     (Federation)
   4-6    ericphillips    (Frax)        vs  Brazouck        (Federation)
   4-7    gar1138         (Tholian)     vs  Bye             (N/A)         Draw          Draw


All matches need to be completed and reported to Garrett and I by Friday, June 10th.

Thanks,

Jim
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St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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