Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Hiding in a corner
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:30 am    Post subject: Hiding in a corner Reply with quote

I'd like to start this thread to discuss the tactic of simply hiding in a corner untill all weapons are charged. You go spd 0 and EM if necessary on turn 1. This tactic works very well for any weapons where you pay a lower holding cost than charging cost and if being trapped in a corner won't hurt you that badly. I'm assuming a tournament setup and tourney rules.

Empires where hiding in a corner can have major benefits:

Federation. By far the best empire except for Vudar. Load or overload all photons on turn 1 and then just pay holding costs on turn 2. The Patrick Doyle maneuver.

ISC. I used this tactic in my PBEM game. Getting PPDs and PL-S charged and then just paying holding costs on turn 2 is huge.

Rom/Gorn. Charging PL G/S/R and then just paying holding costs on turn 2 is nice, but there is a significant disadvantage in not controlling the center of the board. I'm mixed about this idea.

Lyran/Vudar. Save a bunch of power by charging ESG/IPG and then holding the energy for free. Vudar also gain immensely by charging IC on turn 1 and paying holding costs on turn 2.

Orion. If they have PPD, PL G/S/R, Phot, IC, ESG, IPG, they can use this tactic.

Empires that you don't want to use this tactic against:

Anyone with big plasma. You don't want to be trapped in a corner if the other guy has PL S/R ready to smoke you.

Hydrans. They can cover an amazing amount of ground in 1 turn and you don't want to be trapped in a corner vs fusions/PH-G/stingers.

Best empires to use this tactic on:

Andromedans. They quite simply can't hurt you on turn 1 unless they blow their TR beams. And then they'll pay for it on turn 2. Plus they can't do any DisDev tricks if you have a wall at your back

Selts/Lyrans. No seeking weapons and relatively low crunch power means that they simply won't hurt you that badly on turn 1, especially if you EM. And then you have fully charged and possibly OL weapons on turn 2 to face them with.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
IKerensky
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Posts: 108
Location: blois - France

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Best counter tactic : dont move either, then turn 2 dont move and charge your own heavy weapon...

Seriously this "tactics" just add a layer of meta-gaming while you outguess when your opponent will move.

It doesnt sound fun nor realistic and I fail to see any interest in it if you consider that all heavy weapons can be ready to fire by turn 1 anyway (of course you will have less power for an alpha strike).

It is highly dependant on the map size... and sound like the only tactic/move the game will see is : charge all weapon then headbutt charge and alpha-strike.

The very reason why I found balaced point-wise duel game absolutely un-interesting. I'd rather playe 'historical' scenario or game with a goal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Hiding in a corner Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
I'd like to start this thread to discuss the tactic of simply hiding in a corner untill all weapons are charged.


I dislike this as well. I have often suggested that FC needs an speed change rule (like SFB's acceleration rule), where you can only increase speed between turns by one baseline. No going from 0 to 16 or 0 to 24, you will only be able to get to baseline 8. This would especially make standing at 0 especially dangerous against drones or plasma, and IMHO, more interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with eric on this. Almost every fed game I have played has started this way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1879

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, I can't off hand think of any game I've played that has started like that. I probably have had a game like that, but it just hasn't stood out as an issue. Even my e-mail game started with the Fed player coming out at speed 16 into the center. Even playing plasma (prior to the arming change) I would be looking to arm before diving in, but still would be at least speed 16 and manouvering for some position.

It might be worth looking at the starting positions, rather than changing the game. I assume the OP is looking at tourney style games mainly, scenarios/campaign games tend to have other factors which may make that start a bad idea.

The current 2010 origins setup rules are bad, and probably benefit such a first turn - both ships are so far away there is practically no way another ships is going to get to you and make you pay for your choice. The 2009 rules were bad for starting one person but not the other in a corner, but either way doing speed 0 on turn 1 was potentially dangerous as you were close enough to suffer against someone coming at you. Scoutdads email games are better, a more balanced start but still close enough that you want to be giving some serious thought before being that much of a sitting duck. Pulling both ships off the edge a bit more might help with any issues of being able to have your back to a wall - start one person at 0716 and the other at 3516, that is out of max range of each other but some distance from a map edge, and close enough that speed 0 is risky .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick Doyle has written about this tactic many times. Essentially, it does two things: 1, it maximizes your energy for overloads with photons, and 2, it keeps you at the farthest range possible for the enemy to fire seeking weapons on Turn 1 Impulse 8/Turn 2 Impulse 1, so you can maneuver around them better bcause they are at such a range. You canalso jump to speed 24 without a problem, so you don't ahve to fear the speed of seeking weapons, so it s a big win.

I do like the idea of keeping all the way bac against it. Next time an opponent pulls it, I will just circle back to my corner and then wait, let him come forward. Will be boring, but funny.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pipboy101
Ensign


Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 23
Location: Kansas City, MO (Northland)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have found that speed 0 or 0+1 is only handy right in the start of an game against an aggressive player while playing on a fixed map. This is especially true when I am playing races with a poor turn mode (i.e. Feds and Gorn). I have sat back doing 0+1 to give my ships a low turn mode and makes my enemy (normally Klingon) think about either getting too close to the fixed edge of the board on Turn 1 to turn without doing an HET. This can cut short a Turn 2 Saber Dance because this has now giving all the momentum to the 0 or 0+1 player on Turn 2.

If the Speed 24 player (let us say Klingon) breaks earlier or decelerate to be sure that, they have plenty of room to maneuver the Klingon is now facing an opponent that has plenty of power to absorb incoming volleys and throw sniping Phaser Fire back at them. Therefore, on Turn 2, the Speed 0 player can kick it in Speed 16 or 24 with full weapons, batteries and hopefully shields while facing the enemies broadside or side/rear shields for an Alpha Strike.

Speed 0 or 0+1 is only good on a fixed map when it is a duel. When there is a mission or a fluid map without fixed edges the lack of speed does kill. This can be clearly seen in the previous battle report of the Juggernaught v Kzinti when the Juggernaught was reserving power for shields and weapons allowing it to be surrounded and crippled by lesser vessels. Every new player will face a turtle (my name for Speed 0 players) and will be frustrated by this player’s lack of playing. Worst of all is if the player goes in reverse for the first turn or two. It is a good learning experience for every new player. This will give them experience and the opportunity to learn to counter this tactic with speed and in conjunction with good use of sideslips and last moment turns to force the other player’s hand.

Speed 0 Recap (IMHO)
Fixed Map and Duel Speed 0 is a good tactic as it gives you breathing room and forces your enemy to react more to the board edge than to you.

Non-Fixed Map or mission, Speed 0 will allow your enemy out maneuver or get one-step close to denying you the objective.
_________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Everything I learned in life I learned from Pipboy!

You can also find me on DAKKADAKKA.COM as Pipboy101. Soon to be posting battle reports for FC and SFM there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IKerensky wrote:
Best counter tactic : dont move either, then turn 2 dont move and charge your own heavy weapon...



Your counter tactic only works if you have one of the empires that benefit equally from hiding in a corner. If I have Feds/Vudar/ISC and you have Klingon/Kzinti/Lyran/Andro/Selts, you're just playing into my hands by hiding in your corner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mojo:

I wasn;t actually thinking about the tactical factor, more the annoyance factor as the game slows to a crawl.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
gar1138
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 345
Location: Eugene, OR

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think this tactic is another reason in support of adding an acceleration limit between turns.

Note that the topic of an acceleration limit was discussed in this thread: http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3417 and was declined.

Thanks,

Garrett
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pipboy101 wrote:
Non-Fixed Map or mission, Speed 0 will allow your enemy out maneuver or get one-step close to denying you the objective.


Not exactly true. In 8B106 "Landing Party" and other "defend the objective" missions, I spend a lot of time at speed 0 when defending. I won Landing Party once and never went above baseline 0. Being the Klingon I would accelerate and turn, keeping the enemy in sight, and eventually got a cripple.

Anyway, there are other oddities in FC play where not having a speed limit is kind of weird:

1. When an enemy can emergency decelerate to keep out of your range because they have no power, then when they get power, jump to baseline 16.

2. Any game with plasma. You decide to go 0 or 8 against any plasma, with speed limits you are cooked. As it is now, if it is midway through the turn (and you have laready used your HET) when the launch happens you could emergecy decel to keep from moving towards it and keep it out of range, tac, then go to baseline-24 next turn.

3. Not being able to leap up in speed also benefits drones, and overall promotes a faster game.

I play a lot on FCOL with the rule that you cannot increase speed betwen turn more than one baseline. Easy to implement, sometimes it really does not come into play, but in the scenarios we do play where it comes in (with seeking weapons, black holes, etc.), I think it enhances the game's strategery.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
pipboy101
Ensign


Joined: 07 Jan 2011
Posts: 23
Location: Kansas City, MO (Northland)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric,

I have not played that mission but is the planet in the corner which you are sitting 0 at? I can understand sitting 0 at the target if you are defending a target but this topic is about going 0 at the start of the game in the corner of the board. So, if the mission is to get across the board to an objective going 0 and hiding in a corner is not the best tactical choice.
_________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Everything I learned in life I learned from Pipboy!

You can also find me on DAKKADAKKA.COM as Pipboy101. Soon to be posting battle reports for FC and SFM there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3492
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two points on speed limits:
1) Steve has already said, "No."
2) This is actually worse than SFB.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips wrote:
Mojo:

I wasn;t actually thinking about the tactical factor, more the annoyance factor as the game slows to a crawl.


The game wouldn't actually slow to a crawl since if both sides sit in a corner, turn 1 would fly by in about 5 minutes. And then the side with the multi-turn heavy weapons can approach the other guy and have a crushing advantage in the coming exchange.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, because I am going to play keep away and strike from longer range. Even in a regular game I don't just get in the opponent's face for him to heavy weapon me. But I see your point. I was just being silly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Tactics All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group