Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Fighters in Borders of Madness
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 639

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adding some kind of "flight" rule would be too game changing I do not like it. Direct fire drones are too powerful compared to other heavy weapons no one would take anything else.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
Adding some kind of "flight" rule would be too game changing I do not like it. Direct fire drones are too powerful compared to other heavy weapons no one would take anything else.


I agree on the DF drones. I honestly don't care if they are too powerful, I just don't like the idea. I enjoy drones on the map and since they are all type-I's (4 hits, 12 damage) they are really quite simple to keep track of even in large numbers.
_________________
Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Targ
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 125
Location: York U.K.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Savedfromwhat wrote:
Direct fire drones are too powerful compared to other heavy weapons .


But they don’t have to be, it would be down to the rules finally used if this route was taken. At the moment I must admit I have no idea on any forms of DF missile weapon rules but am giving it a thought will probably get back on this after I’ve read a few older threads.

duxvolantis wrote:
I enjoy drones on the map and since they are all type-I's (4 hits, 12 damage) they are really quite simple to keep track of even in large numbers.


I think this is where there is a great stumbling block when it comes to missiles and fighters. There are many like you, I know. Also there are a lot of us who really don’t like this, particularly when the numbers of Counter/record keeping gose above a certain amount and fighters invariably cause this, but at least still some of those floks want to keep some type of fighter guided missiles in the system. What the compromise, and it has to be a good one, is I really don’t know. Confused
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Steve Cole
Site Admin


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 3044

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"So, does everyone agree...."

I haven't laughed so hard in years. You're never going to get anybody to agree to anything.

There is no inconsistency. The consistency is "this complex and no more complex". That's the consistent rule on which SFB rules get kept, dropped, or changed. It's really pretty consistent once you figure that out.
_________________
The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Targ
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 125
Location: York U.K.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:

I haven't laughed so hard in years.

Glad we've brought a little sunshine to your day. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Ibekwe
Commander


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 445
Location: Manchester UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll speak up in favour of the direct-fire drone approach, with one reservation.

DF drones are potentially more lethal than the seeking variety since they give the target less chance to evade, and also a squadron of fighters can potentially deliver a lot of them at once.

To prevent them becoming too big a sledgehammer, I'd reduce the warhead of DF fighter drones to 6 points. (Actually an idea ripped off from SFC).

Also, I'd want to see non-Stinger fighter launch rates restricted to one or two per ship per impulse. Hydran ships have launch tubes, most others don't.
_________________
We are Hydrans! NO ONE LIKES US!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ericphillips
Commander


Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 702
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Direct Fire Drone = New Rule
New Rule = Bad (most of the time)

Fix = Make sure empires have fighters with only direct fire weapons, so player can choose which they want in their own games.

Exception: The Kzinti, who are all about drones.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
jeffery smith
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 189
Location: Bothell,WA

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Fighters in Borders of Madness Reply with quote

Happy to have given you something to laugh about Svc.
_________________
fun fun fun in the sun sun sun
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Ibekwe
Commander


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 445
Location: Manchester UK

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If (and at this stage it is an *if*) the other empires are going to get a choice of drone and torpedo armed fighters, I'd want the Hydrans to get Stinger-Hs as well.
_________________
We are Hydrans! NO ONE LIKES US!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips wrote:
Direct Fire Drone = New Rule
New Rule = Bad (most of the time)


Given we are talking BoM it is pretty much a given that anything we are talking about is new (and effectively optional) rules. As I've said elsewhere, I don't mind what goes in BoM, but keep all the extra gubbings out of FC proper.


As to the DF rules, I don't think they are overpowering. Getting to range 8 with carrier based fighters is somewhat challenging, Anything can offensive fire them at point of impact. I don't think DF drones are so much more powerful per se, as more binary in effect. It is harder to launch in the first place, but when you do it is more potent.

As was said above, DF does not have to be the rules as they are written, it is more a concept. Certainly I'd much prefer DF drones of some form, I just can't see me playing standard drone rules on fighters at all. I'd happily go for roll 2 dice and it impacts there and then if you roll <= range, extremely simplistic but still has some drone feel with defensive fire etc. Range extends to a possible 12, but really needs close range to get lots of hits.

Someone mentioned target audience. If 'real' SFB players are unlikely to want DF drones then don't try and give them it. Aim such a rule at those who would like the much simpler/faster system, and are not so bothered about whether tactics are the same as SFB.

Then again I'm not that into fighters at all, and wouldn't be overly bothered if drone fihgters weren't in at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monty
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If having drones on the map is a must then there are few options to make the battle more manageable, but there are ways.

Along with incentivised grouping of fighters mentioned earlier, in order to make drones on the map a bit more manageable the targets of all drones could be limited to ships. Drones become a pure anti-ship weapon and fighters, shuttles and other drones would be excluded from the targeting list of drones. The more flexible ADD's, along with direct fire weapons and tractors should be able to cover drone/fighter defenses sufficiently.

ADD's become the anti-drone/anti-fighter missile like the sidewinders and sparrowhawk missiles of today. Drones would be the harpoon and tomahawks. Now you have some flavor, retaining distinct roles for your squadrons.

How does this help? It doesn't help that much until the drone fighters get rebalanced, though, it would reduce the overall number of decision points a player has to deal with for his flights. Too many decisions slow any game to a crawl. Still, there's a potential for several drones on the map but not quite as many if the layout of the drone fighters get tweaked a bit. Since the drone-fighter layout on the ship cards hasn't been set in stone there's an opportunity to do some balancing. The F-18's for instance could be changed to have one fewer drones and add an ADD to make up the difference. The drone fighters could be restricted to one drone launch per turn, or one guided drone at a time.

Ya get fewer overall drones on the map, but you still get them. Existing Hydrans don't have to change. Most fighters are flying around in groups because it's smart to. When someone launches drones they wouldn't be selecting on nearly every enemy unit on the board to determine the best opportunity, a much smaller subset.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Sir Drake
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 84
Location: Sacramento

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have question , stingers in FC have had the number of fusions they can fire in one turn cut in half from SFB. So will in BoM fighters have their hvy weapons cut down also, or will stingers have their rules changed back, or will stingers stay the same and other fighters play by diferant rules. It seams to me that it should be one or the other and I need to know that before I can help add my 2 cents in to BoM fighter rules.
_________________
Colour Sergeant Bourne: It's a miracle.
Lieutenant John Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.
Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.
From the Movie ZULU
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: changing drone rules not to target drones:

Three objections:
1. Major rules change affecting not just BoM games with fighters but base game.

2. Inconsistent with background database. Drones can take out other drones. It may not be the most efficient way of doing it, but that's how it works.

3. Some Empires and ships have drones, and face drone-armed enemies historically, but have no anti-drones, e.g. pre-War Kzintis (the "war" classes like the Medium Cruiser, War Destroyer and New Heavy Cruiser do have them, but they are in the minority), Frax, any Orion who does not want to waste an option mount on a purely defensive weapon, and most WYNs. Take away their drone-vs-drone defense, and they're stuck using phasers to take out the drones, tipping the balance point in favour of ADD-armed ships with drones (because they are not using power in drone defense while the other ship is).
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
dharras
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Bristol, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Ibekwe wrote:
If (and at this stage it is an *if*) the other empires are going to get a choice of drone and torpedo armed fighters, I'd want the Hydrans to get Stinger-Hs as well.


I'd bet they'd have to be limited as in SFB, but it would be nice.... Wink

Question for drone armed figters; normal ship drones must be launched from a unit within 25 hexes of the target (4F2a); they must also be within 25 hexes of the controlling unit at all times (4F2e). Fighter drones however must be launched within 8 hexes (5QM3b); should the control range of Fighter drones be specified as 8 hexes (going 24+1 ought to then evade a large number of them)?

Another question: If a fighter fires a drone and lands back on a ship, what happens to the drone in flightn (currently unspecified) - is control dropped, or maintained even though its back onboard?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Bolo_MK_XL
Commander


Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 783
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Another question: If a fighter fires a drone and lands back on a ship, what happens to the drone in flight (currently unspecified) - is control dropped, or maintained even though its back onboard?


Personally would go back to the original fighter rules from the early days:
Have to maintain target in the forward arc to control drone --
Let them launch at whatever range but limit fighter drone range to 18/24 hexes --

Many things that can be done that to keep fighters from overrunning the map ---
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 4 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group