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Initial observations on web
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:19 am    Post subject: Initial observations on web Reply with quote

Federation Commander's webs are a bit different to SFB's (from what I understand). In SFB, flying into web at high speed can cause your ship to break down. In FC, it doesn't, so there's no reason not to fly fast. By flying fast, you can get out of the web faster and might even be able to fly through free-standing cast web before it can activate.

(This is pretty much the same as everything in FC. In FC, there's plenty of reasons to stay at high speed (20-24 hexes/turn) and no real reason to slow down. Web casters are just another reason to keep your speed up.)

Don't get between two Tholian ships if web casters are around. The Rockheads will use the two ships as anchors, and the web will activate immediately, trapping your ship. The two anchor ships may then turn shuttles into web anchor buoys, freeing them up while your ship is stuck.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry: Two WC equipped ships aren't even required. We played Desperate Days (from TA) last night. The Neo-Tholian Heavy Cruiser has 2 Web Casters. Those 2 casters combined with all the asteroid maps we had (made the whole combat zone an asteroid field... Woo Hoo!) made the Romulans life miserable for 6 whole turns. They eventually whittled away the 2 Alliance escorts (at the cost of a Sparrow Hawk), but even with the NCA using his casters to slow down Plasma Torps and redirect the Romulans through asteroids and around cast web, etc. - The Romulans eventually managed to gain the upper hand and win the scenario...

Sad They say that three's a charm... maybe next tiem the Alliance will win this one Wink

You are correct about the speed issue though. Our old-time SFB'ers initially had a hard time remebering to keep their speed up (used to suffering damage from sudden stops in webs, I guess). After a turn or two, every thing went back to the normal practice of plotting a baseline speed of 24 whenever the power was available. At least at speed 24 (+1) you can eventually get out of a web hex.
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mahatmamanic
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Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just played my first game with the NT light cruiser last night (against the Hydran from Booster 0) and got pretty demolished (though my opponent had a few lucky hellbore rolls.) My observation about the web from flying the NT is that the opponent of the NT should -always- be moving fast...basespeed 24 if possible.

The reason is that the faster you are going, the farther forward a web has to be cast bt the NT to have a chance of catching you. If you are moving base 24, the web has to be 4 hexes out to be able to prevent you from moving through it before it solidifies. At that range, it's impossible (except for some corner cases nar the edge of the map) to actually trap you, as you can turn/slip out of the way.

If you are moving base 8, in comparison, the web only has to be laid 2 ahead to catch you, and that's -much- harder to avoid.

I'm really looking forward to playing the NT more to get a better feel for the web and the general operation of the ship (I learned pretty quickly that OL disruptors are pretty much out of the question unless you start the turn at under range 4 with a good facing), which make for an interesting dynamic. My only problem now is that I really only get to play two or three duels a month, and between the Lyrans, the Kzinti, the Romulans, the ISC, and the NT...I don't have the time to get particularly good with any ship *sigh*
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my mind the absolute biggest difference between FC webs and SFB webs is the maximum strength. In SFB, the maximum strength of a web is 35. This means it is theoretically possible to keep a ship stuck forever, and forces the attackers to make very deliberate and careful approaches. In FC, the maximum strength of the web is 32. This means a ship can fully penetrate a full strength web strand in a single turn.

This is a huge difference. Sure, being stuck for one turn per web layer stucks while being beaten on by Ph-4s from the base, but it is still just a single turn. There is nothing the Tholian can do to slow you down further. After one turn per web layer, you *will* be hitting the base.

This means that an attacking force can theoretically be much smaller in FC than is required in SFB.
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mahatmamanic
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not if the Tholian takes time during that turn to hit you with mizia type strikes that target the engines though. A few well-placed shots could leave that ship stuck in web forever, if power generation gets a little low. And during that turn you are trying to break out of a 32 strength web, there won't be much power available to retaliate or reinforce the shields the tholians are banging on.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mahatmamanic wrote:
Not if the Tholian takes time during that turn to hit you with mizia type strikes that target the engines though. A few well-placed shots could leave that ship stuck in web forever, if power generation gets a little low. And during that turn you are trying to break out of a 32 strength web, there won't be much power available to retaliate or reinforce the shields the tholians are banging on.


Not in Fed Comm. There is no EBDTD. So I will have all my power for the turn regardless of how much damage you do.

So while you won't be able to stop a ship from penetrating the web, it may not have much in the way of power or weapons left.

However, if you do that with 2 ships...then the Rock-heads have to pick which ship to target, as they probably won't have enough phaser fire from the base alone to cripple 2 ships.
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mahatmamanic
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would have all your power for the current turn, but unless you run into the web very early in the turn (allowing you to break out early in the next turn if going max speed) it seems like it would still be possible to prevent you from getting what you need, or at the very least slow you down more than a single turn?
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junior
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well...

No one can account for everything that players will decide to do. But since the player diving in gets to choose the impulse that they enter the web (unless a sneaky Tholian tractors them in), the ship is pretty much guaranteed to get through if the owning player wants to set it up properly.

Given the choice between

a.) Go speed 24+8 this turn, spend 16 moves to get to the web, and 16 to get through it. Lose three quarters of your power from Phaser-4 fire while in the web, and get stuck in it for two more turns

or

b.) Go speed 16 this turn, end the turn just outside the web, and dive into it at speed 24+8 next turn. Lose three quarters of your power from Phaser-4 fire while in the web, but make it through most of the web anyway before the end of the turn

Which would you prefer to do?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are missing the point of my post. Sure, you can theoretically damage a ship so bad it becomes "stuck forever". But then, diving your ships through a web (particularly a wedding cake) is going to make you lose ships. Such is combat against a web defended target.

But that is not my point.

My point is that with SFB web, the attacking fleet (and you will have a fleet, right? no one is stupid enough to attack a webbed target with just one ship) will have to plan on having the entire fleet stuck in the web for multiple turns per layer. And if they attackers are not careful (or really unlucky) it will be even longer than that. You simply cannot get through a full strength web; the attack must wait for the web to weaken to get through.

In FC web, however, ships can plow through even a full strength web. Each strand of web is merely a one turn delay, and there is nothing that can make it last longer. The attack does not need to be nearly as careful in their attack, either. Blind spots are far less important (if not outright irrelevant) as there is little point in reinforcing a maxed out web.

Sure, the attacking fleet is still going to get hammered by the targets' phasers, and is going to lose ships along the way. But the attrition is going to be much, much less, and the reduction in loses is not tactics dependent.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... remember that Phaser-4s can do targetted damage. That can strip a ship's engines off in double-quick time. Your ships could end up in a Spider Sandwich, stuck power-less between two layers of web and unable to penetrate either. If the web is Strength 32, you need to have enough power to generate 32 movement points in 8 impulses, or you are stuck forever (barring assistance from another ship). It doesn't take a whole lot of engine damage to reduce a ship to that point. For a D7, it's only 6 power hits (ignoring any power saved in batts).

I think the "charge in" tactics would probably work better for the Seltorians. They can fire web breakers at range 0 while stuck in the web, letting them get through faster. They also tend to have more power than the Klinks.

I agree though, that the number of attackers required to overwhelm the base is probably lower in FC than in SFB.
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TJolley
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Hmmm... remember that Phaser-4s can do targeted damage. That can strip a ship's engines off in double-quick time. Your ships could end up in a Spider Sandwich, stuck power-less between two layers of web and unable to penetrate either.

I agree though, that the number of attackers required to overwhelm the base is probably lower in FC than in SFB.


But how many ships can a base do that to in a turn? 1? maybe 2? Unless the Rock-heads get really lucky and roll every hit exactly on power and always roll 1's and 2's on the phaser to hit rolls. You can't always count on luck going your way.

That pretty much makes it an even BPV match if ships are involved..Fighters on the other hand will get shredded.

The dropping of max strength from 35 to 32 actually makes the web a defeatable thing..which is a really good thing.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Hmmm... remember that Phaser-4s can do targetted damage. That can strip a ship's engines off in double-quick time. Your ships could end up in a Spider Sandwich, stuck power-less between two layers of web and unable to penetrate either. If the web is Strength 32, you need to have enough power to generate 32 movement points in 8 impulses, or you are stuck forever (barring assistance from another ship). It doesn't take a whole lot of engine damage to reduce a ship to that point. For a D7, it's only 6 power hits (ignoring any power saved in batts).

I think the "charge in" tactics would probably work better for the Seltorians. They can fire web breakers at range 0 while stuck in the web, letting them get through faster. They also tend to have more power than the Klinks.

I agree though, that the number of attackers required to overwhelm the base is probably lower in FC than in SFB.


Terry, after playtesting Tholian Attack and playing a few BATS attacks, I can attest to a few facts.
1) the attacking force can indeed be smaller than in SFB and still suceed.
2) the reduction in max web str turns webs from devastating, to a difficult but defeatable item.
3) In a balanced scenario, more ships can hit the web in a single turn than can be power-stripped by the BATS.
4) Even if you do scorethe 6 power hits on a D7, it can still be pulled out of the web by another ship.
5) With FC's "no limit Damage Repair", even those power-stripped resurrection ships can come back to haunt you.

Don't get me wrong. In assault against a webbed base isn't a cakewalk, but since the attacker can usually decide the tempo of the attack - while difficult, it can be done.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mahatmamanic"]I just played my first game with the NT light cruiser last night (against the Hydran from Booster 0) and got pretty demolished (though my opponent had a few lucky hellbore rolls.) My observation about the web from flying the NT is that the opponent of the NT should -always- be moving fast...basespeed 24 if possible.
quote]

too true. Speed is life, especially against a web ship. A faster speed allows you to:
a) avoid the web entirely, or
b) get hrough it as quick as possible.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1-v-1 battles in open space against an opponent who plots high speeds, don't forget that the web caster can be used as a direct-fire weapon. It's not efficient, but if your opponent is going 24, there isn't much power left for weapons and reinforcement Smile
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a one-on-one fight in open space, the web caster is not there to "catch" your opponent. Rather, the webcaster serves two main purposes:

1) It will very efficiently clean seeking weapons off your tail (especially plasma).

2) It is self-generated terrain you have control over.

In the second case, remember that any web of strength one or more prevents your opponent's fire when it is between the ships. Dance around the web strand to control your opponent's firing opportunites to suit your desires, not his. Make sure you hammer him with phasers before he can even fire at you.

If you are trying to get your opponent stuck in cast web in a one-on-one battle (at any speed), you are almost guaranteed to be using it wrong.
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