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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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 Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:37 am Post subject: Andromedans overpointed |
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I'm inclined to think that the bigger Andro ships are overpointed. An Intruder costs 265 points which is basically the same as a DNH. And IMO, pretty much any DNH is going to clobber the Intruder. A Dominator is 457 which is significantly more than any BB, yet any BB should annihilate the Dominator.
An Intruder has 3 TRH and 8 PH2. That's pretty pitiful vs any DNH class opponent. The Dom has 4 TRH and 16 PH2 which is even more pitiful vs a BB and possibly a FF or DD for the same points. They can do some fancy tricks with the DisDev and they have better defenses, but I can't see them winning in such a fight. |
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:19 am Post subject: |
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I dunno, Mojo... the Andromedan's protection should regenerate a lot faster than the Galactic ship's. What I've found from playing the Andros is that an Andro's ideal game goes like this: [edit: actually got the basic idea from a SFB note from Ken Burnside, it's not an original idea of mine]
Andro closes to ideal range for the TRs and exchanges fire (this could be range 5 or longer) possibly throwing in the Ph-2s if its not expected to be needed for seeking weapon defense. The Andro power absorbers absorb all of the Galactic's fire and the Galactic ship loses a shield. Either side may take inconsequential damage (burn through in the case of the Andro). Andro does some Marine raids. Andro runs away and reloads TRs while performing a tactical power dump to fill batteries and clear panels. Andro comes in again and performs the same stunt as before, hitting a different shield this time, but preferably one next to the already down shield. As before. Then, on the third battle pass, it is able to hit a down shield and start doing internal damage. The Galactic should not be able to fix a significant number of shield boxes unless it slows right down and lets the Andromedan get in fairly close to hit it with ph-2s on a weak arc. I haven't tried Dominator vs BB or anything like that but it seems to hold true for the smaller ships.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Andro runs away and reloads TRs while performing a tactical power dump to fill batteries and clear panels. |
I've been looking at the rules and trying to work out how to fill the batteries while performing a tactical power dump.
As far as I can see, the power from the dropped panels goes in to the other panel bank first, and then in to the batteries. So unless the other panel bank is full, no power goes in the batteries. Have I got that right, or am I, as is so often the case, missing something? 
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:29 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | I dunno, Mojo... the Andromedan's protection should regenerate a lot faster than the Galactic ship's. What I've found from playing the Andros is that an Andro's ideal game goes like this: [edit: actually got the basic idea from a SFB note from Ken Burnside, it's not an original idea of mine]
Andro closes to ideal range for the TRs and exchanges fire (this could be range 5 or longer) possibly throwing in the Ph-2s if its not expected to be needed for seeking weapon defense. The Andro power absorbers absorb all of the Galactic's fire and the Galactic ship loses a shield. Either side may take inconsequential damage (burn through in the case of the Andro). Andro does some Marine raids. Andro runs away and reloads TRs while performing a tactical power dump to fill batteries and clear panels. Andro comes in again and performs the same stunt as before, hitting a different shield this time, but preferably one next to the already down shield. As before. Then, on the third battle pass, it is able to hit a down shield and start doing internal damage. The Galactic should not be able to fix a significant number of shield boxes unless it slows right down and lets the Andromedan get in fairly close to hit it with ph-2s on a weak arc. I haven't tried Dominator vs BB or anything like that but it seems to hold true for the smaller ships. |
This strategy probably works better with the smaller Andro ships. A Mamba vs a CL or a Cobra vs a FF is probably a great matchup for the Andro. However, a DNH probably does about twice the damage of a typical CL and the Intruder doesn't have twice the PA panels as a mamba. The ships don't scale the same way as the points increase.
The matchup gets especially ludicrous with the 4 PPD version of the ISC DN which at 280 shouldn't be completely lopsided vs the Intruder's 265. Yet that DN can crush the entire PA bank in 1 volley at range 5 and still do lots of internals. The Intruder might not even take down the DN shield at range 5 if it's not centerlined. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4091
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, but what do you do with that 4 PPD ISC DN when the Intruder displaces from range 17 to range 5, then moves into range 3 before you can fire again? Then you get the choice between firing at range 17 or not firing.
Andromedans like ships with all PPD armaments ...
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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Nice tactic Mike - thanks. I will try it out on Sunday - we have a big ISC vs Andro battle planned! 
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Kang wrote: | | Nice tactic Mike - thanks. I will try it out on Sunday - we have a big ISC vs Andro battle planned! |
Well, I can't take credit for it. It is straight out of SFB. In SFB it is even nastier, as you can displace after the first pulse or two, reducing the damage taken even further.
In FC, however, you get a different advantage. Since DisDev happens after all other direct fire, you don't have to worry about taking any direct fire until next impulse. That means you don't have to get to range 3 on the displacement itself, but on the combination of displacement and movement. In effect, you can then displace 16 hexes (rather than just 12) when you factor in your movement.
The counter tactic, of course, is to make sure you have sufficient plasma waiting for him. With 4 PPDs and no Pl-S, that is very difficult (a single rear-firing Pl-F isn't going to slow down and Intruder). Which, of course, is why there is a 2 PPD, 2 Pl-S version of the dreadnought ...
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 834
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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In addition, after you fire, displace the DN so he doesn't get chance to launch even the single F at you ---
Then theres always the option of displacing behind the DN, since facing isn't and issue when you jump ---
If the DN Hets, you just overrun him and beat feet at 32 till TRs are recharged --- |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | Yeah, but what do you do with that 4 PPD ISC DN when the Intruder displaces from range 17 to range 5, then moves into range 3 before you can fire again? Then you get the choice between firing at range 17 or not firing.
Andromedans like ships with all PPD armaments ... |
With the PPDs, firing at 17 hexes isn't so bad. They average 3.1 hits at that range and do an average of 37 forward damage and 12 damage to the rear PA panels with 4 of them. If the Andros get close, the 10 PH1 and 8 PH3 can quite easily fill up the remainder of the front PA panel and possibly do internals depending on whether the Andros can manipulate the range to 3 or whether it gets to 2.
If I were the ISC, I would probably fire 2 PPDs at long range and and save 2 after seeing how the Andro maneuvers. Since the Andro doesn't actually want to get to point blank range, I should have opportunity to fire them as he's running away. |
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as I can see, the power from the dropped panels goes in to the other panel bank first, and then in to the batteries. So unless the other panel bank is full, no power goes in the batteries. Have I got that right, or am I, as is so often the case, missing something? |
Yep, that's right. E.g. Mamba has six forward panels and four rear. Forward bank is full rear is empty. Deactivate forward panels. 40 points go into rear panel bank, 20 points into batteries (which have a total capacity of 30). Later, reactivate forward bank and deactivate rear. 40 points go into forward bank. Then after two impulses activate the rear again. At end of turn, dissipate six from forward bank, transfer six to batteries, move six to rear bank. So you have 22 in forward panel bank, six in rear, 26 in batteries.
Now, during EA of the next turn you completely turn off your engines and run the whole ship on the batteries. You'll probably burn all the battery power running panels, paying for your baseline speed, and loading TRs. At the end of Impulse 1, you deactivate both panel banks (if it's safe) and 28 points of power go straight to the batteries. Imp 3, you reactivate. You now have no damage in panels and 28 points in batteries.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Yep, that's right. E.g. Mamba has six forward panels and four rear. Forward bank is full rear is empty. Deactivate forward panels. 40 points go into rear panel bank, 20 points into batteries (which have a total capacity of 30). Later, reactivate forward bank and deactivate rear. 40 points go into forward bank. Then after two impulses activate the rear again. At end of turn, dissipate six from forward bank, transfer six to batteries, move six to rear bank. So you have 22 in forward panel bank, six in rear, 26 in batteries. |
The problem I have when I play Andros (and I'm probably not playing them right) is that I can never deactivate a side to fill the other side and not take internals. They always hold a few weapons in reserve. The second I drop the nose to the rear I get shot...with one side down and the other side full it goes right in. Andros don't have many boxes. Every phaser hurts, even at range.
Worse if they have PPD or Hellbores then ANY time a bank is full anywhere I am taking internals as they wrap around...
As I said though, I suspect I'm not playing them right. I never played them in SFB and only a little now in FC. There are a lot of my own and other peoples' theories about what I should be doing floating around in my head but in the actual execution I am imperfect at best. |
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Bolo_MK_XL
Captain
Joined: 16 Jan 2007
Posts: 834
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Dirk,
In SFB, the Andros had the EW yoyo, they could bounce from ECM to ECCM pretty much at their whim --
Without it a lot of their tactics are degraded more than just a bit ---- |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Self-displacement can get you some extra distance, and evasive maneuvering while dropping panels will also help. If the opponent is staying right on your tail you can't do this. On the other hand, if he's using speed to stay on you, that isn't going into overloads.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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In the case of the Intruder vs ISC DN, I'd like to make some additional points:
1. The Intruder's turn mode is C, the DN's is E. The Intruder's heavy weapons have a FH arc and the DN's is FA. If the Intruder is patient, it should outmaneuver the DN and be able to hit a rear shield. Yes, the DN can HET safely once, but more than that and it's a big risk.
2. The DNP is arguably UNDER-pointed. (As is the CS for that matter.) I don't think a ship with four PPDs is really worth the same as a ship with two, or one with four plasma-S and no PPDs. The PPD in FC is better than in SFB. Other Galactic DNs would have to be lucky to fill the panels with their heavy weapons at range 5. Fed for example: with six photons, at range 5 half will hit, or 48 points with average rolls for full overloads.
So I think the Intruder has an uphill fight here. Not impossible, just that it is fighting against an opponent which is better than its point value suggests. The Intruder will have to use all of its advantages to win.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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Kang
Fleet Captain
Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1976
Location: Devon, UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | Yep, that's right. E.g. Mamba has six forward panels and four rear. Forward bank is full rear is empty. Deactivate forward panels. 40 points go into rear panel bank, 20 points into batteries (which have a total capacity of 30). Later, reactivate forward bank and deactivate rear. 40 points go into forward bank. Then after two impulses activate the rear again. At end of turn, dissipate six from forward bank, transfer six to batteries, move six to rear bank. So you have 22 in forward panel bank, six in rear, 26 in batteries.
Now, during EA of the next turn you completely turn off your engines and run the whole ship on the batteries. You'll probably burn all the battery power running panels, paying for your baseline speed, and loading TRs. At the end of Impulse 1, you deactivate both panel banks (if it's safe) and 28 points of power go straight to the batteries. Imp 3, you reactivate. You now have no damage in panels and 28 points in batteries. |
Wow! That's cool - thanks. Another trick to try on Sunday.  I suppose you can only do this if the enemy can't get a shot at you? I mean, if you have full panels or deactivated panels, you will be vulnerable to internal damage?
Plus with the detail of the engines, I suppose you can also generate just enough engine power to make top speed, pay for a HET as well as just the functions you mention. That's the flexibility.
These Andros are soooo cool - there's so much to do and learn with them!
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