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3rd FCOL Tournament Draft Rules
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it is worth, I had actually talked myself into a Rom force for this tournament. Then the Orions got bumped down. Just letting everyone know ahead of time the my force will be:

2xOrion BC, 2xOrion LR - photons in all mounts. That is 14 photons (more than any Fed force can employ) and a +1 shift against your return fire to boot. Good luck to anyone meeting me at range 8.
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ericphillips
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Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA, Sol, Gould Belt, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Local Group, Universe Beta

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
2xOrion BC, 2xOrion LR - photons in all mounts. That is 14 photons (more than any Fed force can employ) and a +1 shift against your return fire to boot. Good luck to anyone meeting me at range 8.


Can we all just concede now and move on to the 4th FCOL tourney?
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
2xOrion BC, 2xOrion LR - photons in all mounts. That is 14 photons (more than any Fed force can employ) and a +1 shift against your return fire to boot. Good luck to anyone meeting me at range 8.


Can we all just concede now and move on to the 4th FCOL tourney?


I suspect that is premature. Wink I posted the fleet in the expectation that it will get replicated by many and force the Orions to bump up again. Thereby allowing me to take my Rom force and get trounced instead. Smile
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gar1138
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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Location: Eugene, OR

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It appears that the Orion BC is not in the FCOL library at the moment. If someone sends me the card, I can work up the def and submit it in short order.

However, that Orion fleet sounds pretty nasty! Maybe it (the BC) shouldn't be added? Smile

Garrett
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1836

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
The facts seem to support Orions as Feds on steroids. At least if you compare equivalent ships and use equivalent weapon mounts..


You are missing the point I was tyring to make. Orions are not feds on steroids, they are Orions. No amount of comparisons will turn them into Feds on steroids, they are and will remain Orions. I'm not saying they are not potentially nasty, but they have different ships to select, and different strengths and weaknesses. I often see Fed players looking to take the large BCH or DN, how many orions will want to turn up with the equivalent orion ships?

I like orions. I dislike Feds. I dislike photons. I might well turn up with orions but it probably won't be with photons. Maybe any orions I take will compare to Empire X as Empire X on steriods, but it probably won't be Feds on steriods.

The point I was trying to make to Jim is that we'll not get a true picture of how players actually value orions if they are 'pegged' to another independent empire whose popularity and performace has no obvious bearing on Orions. Maybe there will be a glut of players wanting to take orions at 1.00, but no-one who wants to take them at 1.05? Unlike Feds who had 3 players take them at 1.05.

Feds, of all empires, may be popular for simply sentimental/identity reasons and nothing to do with how they perform, so it makes no sense to peg someone to them.


Last edited by storeylf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee is certainly right that they should not be pegged to any other empire.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Empire X can do what Empire Y can do, only better, it makes sense to say that X is Y on steroids. Yeah, there isn't an exact Orion equivalent of a Fed BC/DN, but for the vast majority of tournament ships chosen (NCA or smaller), Orions are equal or better in every category.

Orions shouldn't be pegged to any specific empire, but there should be recognition that if they're better at almost every category, they should cost more. The only fleet that I can think of offhand that has even a small chance against Paul's nightmare Orion fleet is an ISC fleet since the PPDs do enormous damage out to 15 hexes and their rear plasma might be able to discourage the smaller Orion ships in the pursuit.

Incidentally, a Fed fleet with 14 photons that I enjoy is 2 NCL, 2 DW. Or 2 NCL, DW, and DDL which has 13 photons and 2 PL-F. These fleets have enormous crunch and a great power curve.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those Fed fleets only have a good power curve once. Since they can't double their engines, rearming the overloads means a lot of time or stopping.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mojo jojo wrote:
but there should be recognition that if they're better at almost every category, they should cost more.


If the handicap system is done objectively and they are that good then they will end up at an appropriate handicap. Trying to keep them costing more based on assumptions when no one has yet chosen to play them doesn't really help.
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mojo jojo
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Joined: 23 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
If the handicap system is done objectively and they are that good then they will end up at an appropriate handicap. Trying to keep them costing more based on assumptions when no one has yet chosen to play them doesn't really help.


I think there's room for common sense and the "smell test" to operate. I don't need any testing to know that a Fed DN would clobber a Fed FF in a fight. I can just put the cards side by side and compare features without having to pull out maps and counters or rolling a single die. If you want a same point example, I can pull out the Orion BR and Fed CL both at 115 and clearly see that the Fed has no chance simply by putting the cards side by side.

When you look at the Orion BC with photons and Fed NCA side by side as an example, I can't see how anyone can argue that the NCA is as good, even without any testing.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may be well be right looking at individual ships mojo, but you have to create a 450 point fleet at a given handcap.

I do expect the orions to be pretty good at 1.00 (and probably better than Feds). My gut feel though is that they will suffer more than Feds as the handicap goes up. Feds have a good range of ships that makes it easier to handle a reduction in points. Orions have a good range of smallish ships, but at the important mid size and above they are quite limited, and that is likely, I think, to make handicapping that much harder on them to deal with - whether that woud hurt them at 1.05 I don't know, beyond no one took them last time.

Paul has probably looked at what they would be like at 1.05 more than me though. My point was just to try and remain objective and not link one fleet to another based on some personal bias/assumptions.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 1.05 (428 points) they are three points away from 2xCA, 2xLR all photons (14 again). this forces them into taking only 1 ship with 4 option mounts.

They could take a CA, OK6, 2xLR, but then that means taking all of the restrictions on the OK6 (no doubling, no stealth, and most importantly - 4xDis, 1xPhot, instead of 4xPhoton). That means they have to go down to at least 1 BR. (CA, BR, 2xLR or BC, 2xDR, LR). Those fleets are competitive (13 photons each), but much more fragile. I expect 1.05 will be where the Orions need to sit, but we'll see. At 1.10 (409 points), they probably can filed a competitive force (BR, 2xDR, DW is probably best force - 12 photons but all small ships), so it might be 1.10 is where they sit.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The force i was vaguely considering if Orions are down at 1.00 is also a 14 option mount force, but 14 Plasma Fs. 2 * CA and 2 * LR.

Not really expecting it to be competing for a tourney top spot, but it could be good for amusement factor. Sure the 14 photon force is nasty if I meet it at range 8, but I'll not be that unhappy with my chances at range 5, very consistent and aimable damage. Plus no amount of engine doubling gets photons back up the following turn unlike those F's Smile
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F-torp one is an interesting force as well. It is actually pretty competitive, imo. I just prefer the risk factors of the Photon. One thing to think about if you are taking the F-torps is to forgo the +1 shift and keep up the doubling (then add a +2 shift from EM where appropriate). You should be looking for a tractor grab, rather than a R5 shot. One of the nice things is that the opponent needs to essentially destroy your ship to prevent the plasma launch from the dead launchers. You devote your entire frame to protecting a control space.

It is one I have considered (as I said, I just prefer the generated asymetry of taking R8 with that +1 shift).

If going with plasma, btw, you should also consider taking 2xBR 2xDR. That way you can field 12 F-torps and 8 D-torps. More total plasma for your overrun.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh aye, hitting someone with real plasma is better. That's why I like orions with F tubes, they can do the charge in and hit with mass plasma torps, or against a more tricky opponent just carronade it for pretty consistent aimable damage. I also like that it is a zero energy weapon on the first (usually) critical pass. They are good vs stealth or EM as an added bonus.

I do like Pl-Ds, I was trying to work out whether I could fit in a heavy D force. I don't think you can do it with 2*BR 2*DR. 430pts for the ships, +12 for the Fs and +24 for the Ds.


Last edited by storeylf on Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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