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Simpler rules?
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maulers and SFGs have enough effect that they show up in a strategic game. Even prime teams show a "focus of effort".
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Norsehound
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Percentages. Multiplication. Chart consultation.

These things take too long. What about battles that are resolved with one throw of the dice and looking for desired results? Plenty of systems have 4, 5s, or 6s constitute 'successes' or 'hits'. Why not have a target number to be rolled against? That way you resolve combat at a glance without reaching for a calculator.

How about this: a battle chart groups ships into rough categories (FF, CA, DN), each with a target number. Every counter as a +/- factor on it to show how it differs from the target number. Roll however many dice for however many units in that range and result how many dice reach the target number. Bam! Casualties- apply them against targets of your choice. Those targets (if hits exceeds their defense values) are eliminated after they had their own throw of the dice.

Bases, being what they are, would be the only unit to rack up hits between combat rounds and their defense values would be high. They may also be the only unit to have hitpoints (aside from planets perhaps).

Maulers allow another die to be rolled only if the friendly force outnumbers the enemy, or if attacking a base.

Carriers roll 1 additional die to represent fighters. Each escort unit cancels that die roll.

Commando ships are in their own category. If they ever roll a 1, it selects a ship of their class or smaller to capture. If another commando ship adds another success to an existing commando ship, that commando ship can capture a ship one size higher than itself (meaning a commando frigate, enhancing a commando cruiser, could capture an enemy dreadnought). Captured ships do not participate in battle but are marked as such and removed from combat on the side that captured them for use later.

Tholian webs: roll a die at the beginning of each combat: that number on the non-web side is canceled whenever it shows up. Mark off a space on the battle chart to put the die to show this number is canceled. Max is three webs in a battle: One is always added with a base, another is added if there are webspinners (or casters), and always three for capital hexes. Repeat results on web are not re-rolled for that round- such is the fortune of war.

How about that? No percentages, no multiplications. Straightforward throw of the dice and apply the results. Battles might last more rounds, but they'd sure be quicker, and the calculator wouldn't be needed. All you'd need is a cheat sheet to handle the special cases (webs, commando ships).
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jmt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is certainly quicker, but I don't think you would see the same kind of outcomes as in regular FnE. One of the appealing aspects of FC is that flow of an FC game is very similar to SFB.

The tactics in FC work very similar to those in SFB, so ideally the strategy and tactics of FnE Lite should be very similar to regular FnE. That, of course, is the art of it.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a useful point of comparison might be found in the Four Powers War scenario in F&E; at least in the way it plays prior to the onset of Kzinti fighters.

Since no-one has carriers in the Four Powers War, and (in the first couple of years) only the Hydrans have fighter factors at all, the dynamic may echo what you see in "vanilla" FC; where the onus is on ships of the line, not on opposing carrier groups.

No-one has maulers or SFGs in the 4PW, either.



As an aside, has there been any progress on the "Klingon Invasion" concept, or is it still awaiting future consideration?
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmt wrote:
It is certainly quicker, but I don't think you would see the same kind of outcomes as in regular FnE.


This would be a plus to me on this level. Axis and Allies is no Flames of War yet they both appeal to a certain kind of player. It is this other player that could better be sold to by ADB: fans of Feds, Klings and Roms but who are not die hard wargamers.
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, if I were to design such a game, I might limit it to just Feds, Klingons, Roms and Gorns for recognition, build a system in the style of "Fortress America" and "Axis and Allied." Then I would team up with a mainstream fame maker, like Fantasy Flight, Z-Man, or even GMT and get them out there on the shelves so the artwork can sell it.
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jmt
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that there may be a market for such a game, but it wouldn't be a simpler FnE. It would be different game all together. It would be analogous to the relationship between Star Fleet Battle Force and SFB.
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madpax
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips wrote:
I mean, if I were to design such a game, I might limit it to just Feds, Klingons, Roms and Gorns for recognition, build a system in the style of "Fortress America" and "Axis and Allied." Then I would team up with a mainstream fame maker, like Fantasy Flight, Z-Man, or even GMT and get them out there on the shelves so the artwork can sell it.

Funny, I had the same overall idea.
F&E take dalmn too long (half a life?) to play. I want a game that takes an evening. Otherwise, I'm sure I will never have the occasion to play it.
I need a game simple enough to play after 15 minutes of explanation. Otherwise, etc.
I need a game with current graphism and game play. Otherwise.
I had the following ideas (but I'm don't know has to implement them):
- Play with zones. Hexes are good for tactical games. In a big patch of space, you don't need hexes and moving fleets zcross zones is far less tedious.
- Use a very simple combat resolution. I had the same ideas as Eric (roll X dice depending of the number/power of ships, each 5+ (or 4+ or wathever) is a hit, killing (not crippling, please) a ships, maybe with a saving throw.
- Play cards to use special effects: Fighters, drones, ECM, surprise attacks, quick repairs, reinforcements, allies, breakdown, etc.

A game should represent a war over a relatively short time, not enough to use econiomics (it takes months to build a ship, and a war should take less due to attrition, cost, etc.).

Marc


Last edited by madpax on Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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madpax
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmt wrote:
I agree that there may be a market for such a game, but it wouldn't be a simpler FnE. It would be different game all together. It would be analogous to the relationship between Star Fleet Battle Force and SFB.

Sure, a boardgame with SFU feeling and materials.

Marc
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gar1138
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a big fan of Axis and Allies, I would love to have a version of F&E that is about at that same complexity and play length. Yeah, it really wouldn't be F&E anymore, but I think it would be extremely fun.

Garrett
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly. You're no longer talking about simpler F&E. You're talking about another game that (if you keep up with memos) I have been working on for several years.
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ericphillips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes SVC. Andwe await with baited breath.

Where is my mouthwash???
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SFU_FEAR
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ericphillips has been eating sardines again... Very Happy
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kinshi
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stick by my original premise for a 'simpler' FnE..and that is push the basic set the hardest, and dont even try to talk to newer players about any of the add-on materials until they have found the basic set dull (which likely will be never).

The basic FnE set is some pretty good stuff by itself and really does nod need ANY of the add-ons to be a fine wargame. Besides, even with just the basic set, its gonna be a LONG campaign, why make it even longer by making each game turn take even longer than it does already?

Plus the SVC suggestions are golden..cut the fighters, scouts, maulers, admirals, marine generals, diplomacy and the game suddenly becomes quite manageable on a per-turn basis as it cuts an enormous about of bookkeeping across multiple levels w/o impacting the 'feel' of the game.


now that I think of it "civil war" FnE scenarios could be very interesting, where you have loyalists, rebels, and undecideds..I seem to recall a Kzinti campaign in SFB along these same lines. (The Usurper I think)
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ctchapel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other items that could be ignored for simple FnE are the raid rules.

And addressing the new game concept, please don't forget the War at Sea / Victory in the Pacific system. The control of areas, (space) and ports, (planets), for victory points, combined with only using capital ships, (CAs and larger), would make for a faster playing game. No economy, just these are your builds this turn. Counters with an attack value, the number of d6s used, and a defense value, the number of hits taken as determined by the result of the attack, if reduced to zero the ship is destroyed. Simultaneous movement and alternating combat keeps everyone engaged in the game.

There you go Victory in Space!
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