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Hellbore request
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3477
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did make that rule. Sorry, I forgot. Thank you Lee for digging that out!

So, yes, I did indeed invalidate Terry's tactic by requiring the weakest shield to be determined prior to the volleys being resolved. I apologize for failing my memory check.

As I mentioned in both threads (this one and the old one), hellbores has a very distinct advantage over what they get in SFB. There is no real need to make them even more powerful than they already are. Hellbores are supposed to be a "whittling" weapon, and not be a "big punch" weapon. And when half the damage is always going to hit a single shield, the "whittling" doesn't take as long in FC as it would in SFB.
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Dan Ibekwe
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Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Displeased.
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IKerensky
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Joined: 17 Jan 2011
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Location: blois - France

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is probably a stupid suggestion but... : why keep one or two of the hellbore standard and shoot them before reaching range 8 (especially as with an oblique short range half of them wont be in arc). It will help you make more significant damage with the 2 overloads ?

But I dont really see the hellbore as overload close range weapons, not before the other ship have one of his shield already weakened.

I also fail to see how your gatlings could be overburdened by managing a klingon ship drones...
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Dan Ibekwe
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Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we trade fire at range 15...

I fire two HBs per turn. I average one hit, doing five points damage to a shield of the target's choice. In the example above, four points are countered by batteries, and the target now has one point damage on each shield, and *no* unique weakest shield (but due to the trivial nature of the damage, that is hardly important).

The D5W replies with four standard disruptors (average three hits for nine points damage) and six phaser 1s averaging six damage for a total of fourteen, plus one leak point.

To use Mike West's quaint term, I am 'whittling' while being hit with a brick.

EDIT: I omitted to mention that if I fire all four tubes in one turn, averaging two hits and ten points damage (six after battery re-inforcement) on one shield, the D5W can run at speed 16, arm disruptors, forgo firing a couple of phasers and simply repair the shield damage during the reload turns.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he runs at speed 1616 and uses energy to repair shield damage he will get clobbered
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Hydran isn't as badly off you say in that long range duel.

It's unlikey he will get all 6 phasers in 1 volley, centerlining you at range 15 should only happen if you let him. He will get them all in over the turn but not in a single volley.

That leaves his average damage at 12, with a 75% chance of a burthrough - all of of which will be repaired for no consequence over the turn break. In other words the burnthrough is pretty irrelevant at this point. He will then average another 2 over the rest of the turn, so 14 over the turn. Like him you can also shift (or even repair) it. The high chance of a single burnthrough actually works in your favor - as it is effectively a lost damage point at this point in the game.

Over 3 turns he averages 40 damage, between you choosing facing and rotation you ought to have this spread over 5, or at least 4, shields.

You can fire the HB and phasers, assume 2 per turn for hellbores. You average 15, 10 from a hellbore and 5 from phasers. You have about a 9% chance of a burthrough on the facing shield and a 34% chance of a burnthrough on the primary hellbore shield (if different to the facing shield). Whilst it may be small, you have possibility of 2 burnthrough. You are also slightly out damaging him. Also, if you do get those 2 hits, then he will be struggling to avoid a 'weakest' shield next turn (remember he will have 2 shields having been hit and will struggle to battery both, and can only rotate from one of them), ensuring that your main fire hits it again no matter where he faces.

Over 3 turns you can expect 55 damage, with more chance that the HB fire keeps hitting the same shield. Once he is in that position of a weakest shield it can be hard for him to get out of it without engaging in expensive repair, which will either mean less fire at the other guy, or allowing the hydran the initiative.

All very theoretical, and probably not how it would go on for more than a turn or two. But if we are speculating on a multi turn long range duel then I think the Hydran is actually in the slightly better position. Over several turns he is putting out more damage, with more chance of hitting the same shield constantly and with a small chance of multi burnthroughs.
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Dan Ibekwe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Saved - I'm sure I specified in my post that that was during the *reload* turn, so I'm not sure exactly what you imagine is going to "clobber" him.

@Storeylf - Theoretical, true. Any actual battle will hinge on the decisions made by the players and the random outcome of the dice.

I still consider the hellbore a useful weapon in squadron or fleet actions, but I've felt since DK first appeared that the changes in it's function from SFB have hamstrung hellbore ships in duels. Haven't seen anything to change that.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Dan I am pretty sure in your post you created a situation that shouldn't exist and if it does you are doing it wrong.
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Dan Ibekwe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Saved, if you can provide specific examples I'd be delighted to hear them.
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Capt Jack
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Joined: 12 Mar 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Hellbore is a great weapon.

The problem as an Orion, is I can't have it in a LS or RS mount OR more usefull for me Shocked in a rear option mount (don't even know if there are any?)

p.s I think Hellbore and Drone combo are an Andro nightmare!
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Dan Ibekwe
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Captain Jack. HDWs have rear-arc option mounts, although they are not in FC yet.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If we trade fire at range 15...


Well, don't trade fire at range 15 then. Klingon declares fire at R15, you see that he won't penetrate the shield, take the hit then chase and fire from a closer range bracket.
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Dan , I look forward to that (as my rear gunners always seem better, maybe they just get more practice Rolling Eyes ).
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Klingon of Gor
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Ibekwe wrote:

Quote:
Whether I get to range 8 at all lies in the klingon's gift - his ship is at least a fast and agile as mine, and has much wider combined firing arcs for her main armament.


I've played Klingons against Hydrans quite a bit, and it's not entirely within their gift. The problem is that at range 9-15, Klingons may not be able to cause enough damage to the Hydrans. Hellbores take time to work, but at long range, disruptors can take longer, especially against Hydrans, who have pretty good sheilds, and that big block of center hull. Also, Klingons really need to go for directed damage against Hydrans, which requires them to get closer to the problem than is sometimes comfortable.

In addition, since Hydrans can basically match the Klingons for speed, if not for turn mode and weapon arcs, whenever the Klingon turns to bring weapons to bear, he is losing distance that will not easily be regained. Granted, he does have those #3 and #5 hexrows, but the Hydrans may not always cooperate. Given the havoc that overloaded hellbores and fusion beams can deal out, one always wants to keep one's distance from a Hydran, but arranging this is not as easy as it looks.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Terry summed up what I would have said quite nicely.
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