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Cloaks
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JonPerry
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because if there is no reason to wait, then you shouldn't. Nothing can happen outside of range 25 anyhow, so if you planned on cloaking before getting into range 25, go ahead and do it.

I only say this cuz two battles ago that was MY plan, then I either counted hexes wrong or got caught by an acceleration or something, and found myself inside 25 when I started my cloak. There was no reason for me to have waited, and it would have saved me the inconvenience of the incoming drones.
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JonPerry wrote:
Because if there is no reason to wait, then you shouldn't. Nothing can happen outside of range 25 anyhow, so if you planned on cloaking before getting into range 25, go ahead and do it.

You pay for cloak per impulse.

It is always useful to not spend energy you don't have to.

Even if it is near the end of the turn it is very useful to have several impulses "pre-paid" for the next turn.
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Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
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JonPerry
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, true. I've been seeing a lot of eagle class ships on the table that aren't really worried about paying for a full turn of cloaking.

But that KR has a, what, 2.5 cloak cost? That does get expensive.
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Klingon of Gor
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Partly the decision about when to cloak wil depend on your opponent. Assume two different Fed opponents, Fed Guy 1 and Fed Guy 2. Fed Guy 1 decides to attack with standard loads, because he wants the maximum possible reserve power in case he has to run from that big R torp you're packing. So Fed Guy 1 plots speed 24 on turn 1, and comes in with standard loads. Fed Guy 2, on the other hand, is a big believer in overloads, and he plots speed 16. Or maybe even speed 8, because he wants MAX overloads, and while he's at it he wants his batteries charged all the way up.

If you're playng against Fed Guy 1, you may have to make a decision about cloaking pretty quickly. He intends to close on you, and will be in drone range real soon. With Fed Guy 2, you may be under no pressure to do much of anything on turn 1. If you have the reserve power, you can cloak early, or you can wait a while.
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duxvolantis
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:
Partly the decision about when to cloak wil depend on your opponent. Assume two different Fed opponents, Fed Guy 1 and Fed Guy 2. Fed Guy 1 decides to attack with standard loads, because he wants the maximum possible reserve power in case he has to run from that big R torp you're packing. So Fed Guy 1 plots speed 24 on turn 1, and comes in with standard loads. Fed Guy 2, on the other hand, is a big believer in overloads, and he plots speed 16. Or maybe even speed 8, because he wants MAX overloads, and while he's at it he wants his batteries charged all the way up.

If you're playng against Fed Guy 1, you may have to make a decision about cloaking pretty quickly. He intends to close on you, and will be in drone range real soon. With Fed Guy 2, you may be under no pressure to do much of anything on turn 1. If you have the reserve power, you can cloak early, or you can wait a while.

And to take it further, cloaking also has a lot to do with the psychology of the opposing player.

If Fed Guy 2 has shown a propensity for phasering-through or running out plasma, I won't bother cloaking as I can control his behavior with launched plasma.

Likewise if I think Fed Guy 1 is very aggressive I may very well risk an anchor attempt (or, perhaps, a range 5 bolts followed by an EM under-run) depending on how much reserve energy he spends going really fast.
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Dux Volantis
Romulan Star Empire
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Klingon of Gor
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some time back, lb4269 posted on this thread requesting advice about possible Romulan tactics in a matchup between a Skyhawk and a Fed lollipop. I showed it to a friend of mine, who became quite interested in the discussion, and we talked about the pros and cons of the situation quite a bit. Over the Christmas holiday, he decided that he wanted to acually try it as the Feds, and we did. It ended badly for the lollipop.

First of all, the power situation for the Romulans is even better than I thought. After plotting speed 24 (I decided that cloaking was pointless), that little Skyhawk still has 9 energy points left. allowing 4 for the phaser 1s leaves 5, which works out to five damage points soaked without even dipping into that huge battery stack, or a point of acceleration bought every impulse since the movement cost is only 1/2.

We actually played on a closed board, slightly larger than tournament size. Getting within photon range of that lollipop isn't a good thing, but power is so severely limited that it's not like you're looking at max overloads, and you can soak a lot of damage. He actually never got through my sheilds. I hit him with both plasma torps, but on different sheilds as I came in at an angle to facilitate turning away after a firing pass. In neither case did I get internals. I got a couple of leaker points on the first turn that amounted to one transporter and one lab. He got a transporter on me with a leaker point.

The decisive point came on turn three when I bored in to range 4. Neither F torp was back up, but I wanted a close in phaser shot. he had taken an F torp on his number 2 sheild, and with phasers included it was down to one point. He had one live photon torpedo, standard load. I would be exposing an intact sheild (20 points), and decided it was worth taking a photon for a chance to get serious internals. His photon hit, and he rolled pretty well with his phaser 1s. I emptied the batteries to soak, and took a total of 18 hits, which was hard on my number 6 sheild, but still left it with 2 points. I hit him with 4 phaser 1s and got 14 internals, the first 10 of which went down the engineering line on the DAC, and the rest of which went down the number 4 line. The loss of a photon torpedo was meaningless to him, but the loss of power was not. I took a leaker point, which turned out to be a transporter.
He was left with a fairly desperate power shortage, and no live photon torpedos. Both my plasmas would be live next turn. We called it at that point.

Tactical note. It's awfully hard for that lollipop to run out plasma, because that would take actual power. If you don't get internals with an F torp, you're at least weakening a sheild severely, which sets the table for later.

Whatever one thinks of their assigned point values, any Romulan hawk class ship can be an ugly customer. They are extremely well designed ships, and the Skyhawk is really one of the best light ships in the game. This was nowhere near an equal fight, whatever the point values printed on the card.
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KoG,
Are you on FCOL?

The only thing I can think of is that your opponent just was not very good. The SkyH is a far overpoonted ship and frankly should not stand a chance against any of the Fed SC4 ship from the lolloypop down to the frigate.

Normally I hink map matters when making such statements, but not in this case.

I hope you are on FCOL so I can demonstrate to you exactly how bad the SkyH is compared to other small ships.
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Klingon of Gor
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I thought my opponent played better than I did, but in Fedcom power matters a great deal, and on lollipops it is in rather short supply.
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, no, then?
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Skyhawk without using Cloak looks to be slightly better than the ISC FF and slightly worse than the ISC DD.

The Fed DD should probably play as if it has only 2 Photons with 2 extra padding. That should give it plenty of power to go fast and still have direct fire superiority with 2 photons and 6 PH-1. You may even want to load only 1 photon at a time after the initial exchange of fire.

The mistake the Fed player made was in letting 2 PL-F hit. He must have been going very slow (probably from loading all 4 photons) in letting the Rom get 2 meaningful hits.

Against the Skyhawk, any other Fed DD or FF would be better due to a better power curve. You can actually use all their weapons effectively rather than treating 2-3 of them as padding.
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DaveP.
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Feb 2010
Posts: 31

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Skyhawk would have a very hard time against any of the refit DD's and a DDW would wreck it... but remember that this was a Franz Joseph lollypop; no drone rack, no PH-3's, and only 19 total points of power. To put things into perspective: the Skyhawk can run at speed 32, charge all four heavy phasers, and stil have a point left over... all without touching the (6!) batteries.
If the Fed DD wants to run even speed 24 he is left with only seven points of power. If he wants to charge even two photons (or pay hold cost on four standard loads or two overloads) he can either hit speed 30 with no phasers, or stay at 24 and power three phasers, or burn his batteries for a one-time add of a walloping two points of power. He cannot run even two photons up into 12-point overloads on their second turn of loading (or hold four overloads of any size) and reach speed 24 on engine power.
On an open board the FJ lolly's lack of power and maneuverability means that the Rom can dictate the terms of engagement: he never really has to enter range 8 at all and the Fed's advantage in phasers is neutralized by the humungous damage-soaking ability of the Rom's battlecruiser-size battery system.
To top it off, there's nothing in the world to keep the Rom from targeting power systems at range 10... and once the Fed starts to lose power, it's time to sing The Doom Song.
Basically, this is a Brewster Buffalo vs. A6M kind of fight and goes far to explain just why the Feds came out with the refits and the DDW in the first place.
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The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,
I am not sure where you understood this was an unrefitted FJ DD. You may be right, but I don't see that anywhere. The original link to the Fed DD shows a refitted (23 power) DD.

That said, even the FJ version should be able to handle the SkyH. And again, unlike most comments on fights, I don't think any map condition would chamge that. The tactics used by the Fed would change (Stds only on an open or very large map), but the SkyH should still not pose a significant threat. It would certainly be a closer fight, (open or very large map), than any other Fed SC4 ship.
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 641

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. The_Rock I would be interested in trying this on fcol as well. I will re-subscribe and see when we could schdule a time to play.
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pmiller13
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 12 May 2009
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If If you guys are going to fight this battle on FCOL can you post what day and time here. I would love to be able to watch it. I need to learn FCOL and watching the fight will be a great intro. Plus I think the Skyhawk should eat that fed destroyer for lunch, even if it is the refitted version. The power curve just drastically favors the Hawk.
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Klingon of Gor
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:

Quote:
Normally I hink map matters when making such statements, but not in this case.


In any situation where one needs to keep out of photon torpedo range, the map matters a great deal, and in some cases it may be the only thing that matters. Fed light ships have photon torpedoes that work just like the ones on Fed dreads, and there aren't a lot of light ships out there that can take a photon torpedo volley that includes overloads. I'm given to understand that Feds ran a bit slower in SFB than they do now, but I had very little experience with that game and it was long ago. But nowadays they can mostly run speed 24, and if they can do that, then it's pretty hard for whoever they're fighting to open the range. That Skyhawk can actually fight oblique pretty well. It doesn't have to be facing the Feds to launch plasma, and has very good phaser arcs. Ships that fight to the front only have a much harder time playing keep away, but even for ships with good weapon arcs, it's harder than it looks, and impossible on a closed board.

We're going to try a Skyhawk vs Fed war destroyer matchup at some point, though scheduling constraints will make it impossible for the next few days. I'll be playing the Romulans. It looks like an interesting fight, and I'm expecting a tough time of it.
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