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Statistical Analysis of Weapons
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this will fly because they want to make all weapons fit into the master mold, but perhaps:

Prox-fused Photons Range 24, Accurate +1, Multi-Hit 2, does not by-pass shields but rather is Multi-Hit 4 on a to-hit roll of "6".
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGT G,

Per the ACTA-SF rules, overloads have no overload affect over 6". This rule for the Photon makes overloading almost useless when combined with the fact that point blank hit probaility is only 50%

Also, with photons you are -1 to hit after 7.5 inches, you are -1 to hit with disruptors over 12", but still have a 50% hit probability because of the Accurate +1.

I played Federation last night fighting Klingons, and many times it's impossible to disengage to reload your photons. This is due to the unrealistic turn radius provided Klingons.

Photons need Acc+1 or 2 at Under 4", the Agile trait needs be done away with, the lower turn mode of the Klingon provides the ability to out manuever other empires.

The game was close, I eliminated 3 of the Klingon ships. But the Klingons eliminated 4 of mine, and were able to hang right on me and not allow time to reload. As a matter of fact I was only able to reload the Photons on 4 ships a single time each.
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Marauder
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Bob,

I think overloaded photons might be a bit difficult to employ against the Klingons, but they came in VERY handy in my last game against the Gorn (I was Federation).

For proximity fuse I don't think it needs to be a special action - it should just be an alternate firing mode like a bolted plasma torp. Overload is an action because they wanted to slow the ship down and prevent it from being used with other special actions.

-Tim
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lincoln-Log,

Which rule makes overload useless? My suggestion of Prox-fuse? That's supposed to be an addition to, not a replacement of, the current rules.

If you're talking about the current rules ... don't blame me. I don't work for Mongoose (or ADB).
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Quote:
As in FedCmdr / SFB, the Disruptor does about haf the damage of a Photon but fires twice as often, so you need to look at 24 DISR shots to 12 PHOT shots to see how well they stack up.
You did not look at twice as many disrupter shots when looking at average damage.
Okay, here you go:

Code:
FedCmdr -- Max/Avg Damage               |  ACTA:SF -- Max/Avg Damage
Range  6xPHOT  To-hit  12xDISR  To-Hit  |  12xPHOT  To-hit  24xDISR  To-Hit
0       48/48   100%    60/60    100%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
1       48/48   100%    60/60    100%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
2       48/40    83%    48/40     83%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
3       48/32    67%    48/32     67%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
4       48/32    67%    48/32     67%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
5       48/24    50%    36/24     67%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
6       48/24    50%    36/24     67%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
7       48/24    50%    36/24     67%   |    48/24    50%    48/32     67%
8       48/24    50%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/32     67%
9       48/16    33%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/32     67%
10      48/16    33%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/32     67%
11      48/16    33%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/32     67%
12      48/16    33%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/32     67%
13      48/8     17%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/24     50%
14      48/8     17%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/24     50%
15      48/8     17%    36/24     67%   |    48/16    33%    48/24     50%
16      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
17      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
18      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
19      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
20      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
21      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
22      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
23      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
24      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%    48/24     50%
25      48/8     17%    24/12     50%   |     0/0      0%     0/0       0%

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silent bob
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as has been said fedcom doesnt have crits etc.
photons do alot of damage when they crit.
phasers increase the chance of crits.

these 2 points alone balance out disrupters
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More fun numbers: when you fire four weapons, the odds of getting ....

four hits if you need a 3-4-5-6 is 19.75%
three hits if you need a 3-4-5-6 is 39.5%
two hits if you need a 3-4-5-6 is 29.63%
one hit if you need a 3-4-5-6 is 9.88%
no hits if you need a 3-4-5-6 is 1.23%

four hits if you need a 4-5-6 is 6.25%
three hits if you need a 4-5-6 is 25%
two hits if you need a 4-5-6 is 37.5%
one hit if you need a 4-5-6 is 25%
no hits if you need a 4-5-6 is 6.25%

four hits if you need a 5-6 is 1.23%
three hits if you need a 5-6 is 9.88%
two hits if you need a 5-6 is 29.63%
one hit if you need a 5-6 is 39.5%
no hits if you need a 5-6 is 19.75%

four hits to by-pass shields is 0.08%
three hits to by-pass shields is 1.54%
two hits to by-pass shields is 11.57%
one hit to by-pass shields is 38.58%
no hits to by-pass shields is 48.23%
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sgt_G,

My statement about overloads being useless comes down to two factors:

1. There is no benefit to an overload at over 6" (its in the rules). Normal damage at over 6".

2. With hit probability at 50% under 7.5, and 33% at over 7.5", you never get the bang for your buck that you get with disruptors, which can be fired and overloaded every turn with a 66% chance of success under 12%, and 50% at over 12%. Once again you have to be within 6" for overload.

Using the D7 versus the CA as an example, 4 Disruptors to 4 Photons, If the D7 player is crafty, will fire 12 shots to the Photons 4. 1st Shot will still outside of the CA's range, 2nd shot in range possible at point blank. D7 will fire while the Fed either attempts to move off or reloads. In 12 shots statistically I should score at least 2 criticals but probably will get more like 3. Also, statistically 2 of the first round disruptors should hit, depending on the range 2-3 of the sencond round, and 2-3 of the third round. 6-8 hits with 1-2 criticals, versus 1-2 hits for the photons.

Also, I have not disagreed with you on the proximities, as a matter of fact have not made mention of them at all. I think proximities would be great. I also think Overloaded Photons should remain overloaded to 15", and I think Photons should get a Accuracy +1 at under 4" (which increases the probability of a third hit).

Bob
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob, Yes, exactly. The playtesters are all saying "they're fine", but the little bit of solo play I've done and the math tells me they're not fine. When taken in total, I see the Klingons as having the best overall fleet out there, with the Kzintis a semi-close second.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like you I haven't played much (but at least its been against real opponents). But I'm just not seeing your problem. Photons are still mean in this game, yes they make Feds play differently, but in isolation the photon is as good as the disrupter, if not better.

Klingons and kzinti look good, but not because of disrupters. Klinks are good because they have agile and turn 4 on most their fleet. Kzinti because drones are darn good in this game.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lincolnlog wrote:

My statement about overloads being useless comes down to two factors:

...


2. With hit probability at 50% under 7.5, and 33% at over 7.5", you never get the bang for your buck that you get with disruptors, which can be fired and overloaded every turn with a 66% chance of success under 12%, and 50% at over 12%. Once again you have to be within 6" for overload.


I don't understand that statement. Overload doesn't work different for disrupters and photons. Why do disrupters get bang for the buck when photons do not? What has range 7.5 got to do with it, overload range is 6 anyway so long range probabilties are neither here nor there.

In both cases you get the same bang for the buck - you double your damage. Photons get to double their entire damage in one go, disrupters, following the 2 turns to 1 comparison, have to overload twice to keep the same relative damage.

Overloaded photons are scary as hell, a single leak will instantly cripple an F5, 2 leaks will cripple some cruisers (klingons especially). That is before you even worry about the 'devastating' cripple effects.


Quote:

Using the D7 versus the CA as an example, 4 Disruptors to 4 Photons, If the D7 player is crafty, will fire 12 shots to the Photons 4. 1st Shot will still outside of the CA's range, 2nd shot in range possible at point blank. D7 will fire while the Fed either attempts to move off or reloads. In 12 shots statistically I should score at least 2 criticals but probably will get more like 3. Also, statistically 2 of the first round disruptors should hit, depending on the range 2-3 of the sencond round, and 2-3 of the third round. 6-8 hits with 1-2 criticals, versus 1-2 hits for the photons.


The single ship example is probably bad, as the game doesn't seem to work well at that level of play, but...

First shot averages 4 damage, absorbed by the Feds shield boost.

Second shot averages 6 damage, also absorbed by a shield boost.

The Fed averages 8 damage, halved to 4 and still better than the average shield boost the klink gets.

At that point the Fed has outamaged the Klink if you are looking at just photons and disrupters.

Both sides have the same average number of critcal hits, except the Fed may get 2 chances at repair if it took a crit on the first round of shooting, and it will only be standard crits. The Klink will get the one chance at the end of turn 2 and it will have been a double level crit.

At that point the Fed has out critical'd the Klink looking at just Photons and disrupters.

PS: 12 shots you will not most likely get 3 criticals. You will average 2 leaks, 2 leaks have a roughly 50/50 of 1 critical.
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lincolnlog
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
lincolnlog wrote:

My statement about overloads being useless comes down to two factors:

...


2. With hit probability at 50% under 7.5, and 33% at over 7.5", you never get the bang for your buck that you get with disruptors, which can be fired and overloaded every turn with a 66% chance of success under 12%, and 50% at over 12%. Once again you have to be within 6" for overload.


I don't understand that statement. Overload doesn't work different for disrupters and photons. Why do disrupters get bang for the buck when photons do not? What has range 7.5 got to do with it, overload range is 6 anyway so long range probabilties are neither here nor there.

In both cases you get the same bang for the buck - you double your damage. Photons get to double their entire damage in one go, disrupters, following the 2 turns to 1 comparison, have to overload twice to keep the same relative damage.

Overloaded photons are scary as hell, a single leak will instantly cripple an F5, 2 leaks will cripple some cruisers (klingons especially). That is before you even worry about the 'devastating' cripple effects.


Quote:

Using the D7 versus the CA as an example, 4 Disruptors to 4 Photons, If the D7 player is crafty, will fire 12 shots to the Photons 4. 1st Shot will still outside of the CA's range, 2nd shot in range possible at point blank. D7 will fire while the Fed either attempts to move off or reloads. In 12 shots statistically I should score at least 2 criticals but probably will get more like 3. Also, statistically 2 of the first round disruptors should hit, depending on the range 2-3 of the sencond round, and 2-3 of the third round. 6-8 hits with 1-2 criticals, versus 1-2 hits for the photons.


The single ship example is probably bad, as the game doesn't seem to work well at that level of play, but...

First shot averages 4 damage, absorbed by the Feds shield boost.

Second shot averages 6 damage, also absorbed by a shield boost.

The Fed averages 8 damage, halved to 4 and still better than the average shield boost the klink gets.

At that point the Fed has outamaged the Klink if you are looking at just photons and disrupters.

Both sides have the same average number of critcal hits, except the Fed may get 2 chances at repair if it took a crit on the first round of shooting, and it will only be standard crits. The Klink will get the one chance at the end of turn 2 and it will have been a double level crit.

At that point the Fed has out critical'd the Klink looking at just Photons and disrupters.

PS: 12 shots you will not most likely get 3 criticals. You will average 2 leaks, 2 leaks have a roughly 50/50 of 1 critical.


storeylf

The Bang for the Buck comes as probability to hit and effective range.

Disruptors: Range 24, Accurate +1, so hit on 3-6 12" and below, and 4-6 at above 12".

Photons: Range 15, not accurate. Hit on 4-6 blow 7.5", hit on 5-6 above 7.5". When you have 4 photons shooting maybe once every other turn and that is unlikely and your max range is 9" outside the max range of your opponents weapon, then after firing you have to get free enough to reload without being destroyed first, thrid free shot since you can't get beyond 24" in a single turn.

Bob
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats all fine, but why does that mean overload is useless. Overload doesn't alter damage or hit rate for disrupters either. In both cases its 6 inches and normal hit rate. In both cases you double your bang.

Your photons hurt a lot more than disrupters when they do fire. Disrupters are far more likey to need to keep firing at the target next turn to finish it, that makes them vulnerable to other photon ships if they are manouvering to target the same ship again.

Close with the target, shoot him then fly past him on reload. Unless he makes that first long range shot count then on that turn he is looking at a photon vs disrupter exchange, and just like in FC you probably do not want that unless you have already inflicted noticeable damage on the photon ship.

If he struggles to get back round on you he may not be even getting a round 3 shot at all. He may not be able to turn on you (not every disrupter ship is agile 4) or he may have to manouver against another photon ship now coming in, or criticals may prevent him doing what he wants, or power drains to do things like boost shield/repair etc may hinder him. If he lost a ship (and he is more likely to than the photon side at that point due to the crunch dealt out by photons) he may have intiative issues during movement.
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mllaneza
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:33 am    Post subject: The Golden BB Reply with quote

Let's not overlook the one-shot kill capability of the overloaded photon. Dismissing the overloaded photon as useless will cost you kills.

Every attack die rolled bypasses shields on a 6. Of those hits, one in six will cause a critical hit. Each critical will do hull damage and a critical of severity equal to the damage done by the hit. Overloaded photons are Multihit 8, so that's a maximum severity critical.

Check the chart and the rules, the base extra damage for the crit severity is 6, so we're at 14 hull damage. That's the effects through severity 4 criticals. At sev 5 there's an additional d6 damage. At sev 6, the exact location matters. One of six critical hit locations (dilithium chamber) just blows up the ship. Two of six do another d6, and the other 3 do an extra 2d6. To add insult to injury, each severity level past six does extra damage equal to whatever is indicated for level six. So a severity 8.... Ouch. At least another 2d6 damage, for a total hull damage of at least 14+4d6 damage.

14+4d6 hull damage is in the "killing cruisers" range. A D6 pops on 6+, a D5W on 4+ and a D7 on 8+. Most of the time it's worse. Anything smaller than a dreadnought is crippled after one critical from a overloaded photon, if not destroyed outright. For best case damage a C8 is crippled half the time.

So keep overloading those photon torpedoes. You only have to get really lucky once to kill something, and three sixes rolled against a cruiser will kill it without criticals. Only a little luck is needed to kill or cripple anything.
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

multihit 8 is not maxing any criticals, what it does is 8 damage against shields or 8 rolls against the damage table.
however with devastating +1 that will still do plenty of damage
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