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Kzinti vs BS
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know he said 24-21, but since there was no good reason for "21", I modified it to 18. The P-4 chart, 18-25 are all the same thing. As Lee said, if you like, launch at 21, instead of 18.
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Spacecowboy87
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Joined: 03 Jan 2012
Posts: 181
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how it actually ran: 3 Kzinti ships sat (i.e. did not move) at range 24 and launched 9 total drones (3 per ship) per turn, fired on impulse 8 of one turn, and impulse 1 of the next.
WHY range 24? It seemed like a good place to start.
WHY only 3 drones per ship? I wanted indefinite sustained fire.
WHY not follow the drones in? Because that is the established tactic. This was a simulation.
All I'm saying is the Klingon base was barely able to take out 18 drones on one turn, and then only because it had rotated to be able to bring EVERY weapon (and that includes using the phaser 4's to take out drones out to range 10 and using their own standard drones to take out incoming drones), and got some pretty hot dice.
I have some variables to work through -- decrease the range, avoid the centerline, time the base's rotation better, etc. And I realize this represents an unlikely situation, but can you blame me for trying something different? Apparently so Rolling Eyes
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JonPerry
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing wrong with trying something new. It is worth trying to see if a standoff attack would work.

If you can get the job done with cheap drones without risking your expensive ships, then it is worth pursuing.

The only adjustment I would make within the range of that experiment is to not worry about indefinately launching three drones. Put out all of the drones you can and see if that makes up for the damage that would be repaired by the base during the loading turns.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a standoff attack could work under the limitations described. Take a long time, but it would be fairly even.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A base is just like any other fort. It is strong enough to deter a force up to to a certain size, but it is not designed to stand forever. It is designed to buy a certain amount of time for a rescue force to arrive.

The drone standoff tactic may work, but it is good to consider whether the tactic provides the best balance between speed of capture/destruction and losses.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this does is highlight a difference between SFB and FC. In SFB, a base can stop a redonkulous number of seeking weapons, especially if certain rules are in play (minefields, and I think that bases get some kind of shuttle deck rule that gives them incredible numbers of shuttles for wild weasels). In FC, any unit has a hard upper limit of the number of drones it can stop, more than that and it starts taking hits. This just means that when designing scenarios involving bases, you have to throw the defender a bone in the form of expendable freighters or small ships like that for drone defense.

On another note, how many Hydran Stingers does it take to kill a Klingon base? Start them at Range 26 on Turn #1 Impulse #1 Sub-Pulse #1. Assume average rolls by both sides.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, yeah, someone needs to write up the not-launching-directly thing as a tactical note.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
On another note, how many Hydran Stingers does it take to kill a Klingon base? Start them at Range 26 on Turn #1 Impulse #1 Sub-Pulse #1. Assume average rolls by both sides.


Not bothered working it out, but finger in the air = 15/16 would be overkill assuming awesome rolling for the base. On average rolls maybe a couple less.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
terryoc wrote:
On another note, how many Hydran Stingers does it take to kill a Klingon base? Start them at Range 26 on Turn #1 Impulse #1 Sub-Pulse #1. Assume average rolls by both sides.


Not bothered working it out, but finger in the air = 15/16 would be overkill assuming awesome rolling for the base. On average rolls maybe a couple less.

The base will get to fire at the Stingers at Range 16 through EM shift on turn 1 and at Range 2 again through an EM shift (if the base waits till Range 0 and no EM it will be too late).

The base can probably kill or cripple 1-2 on turn 1. (Phaser 4 average damage 3.13, Disruptor does 2 on a '1' on the die and the rest of the weapons are useless. One drone will force one Stinger out of EM to kill it making it easier to kill with disruptors perhaps?)

On turn 2 the Range 2 shot will be more effective. Each overloaded disruptor has a 50% chance of hitting and crippling (8 dmg) so that is 2-4 dead, depending on luck. Each Phaser 4 will kill or cripple a Stinger (9 damage on a 6 on the die). 5 more out of the picture. Phaser 3's will be mostly useless but still probably worth firing for 1.66 damage each. Probably fire all 4 at one to get a good chance of one cripple but if the base is overwhelmed perhaps you fire 2 each and hope for luck. Another drone will make another Stinger easier to kill and ADD will do a little damage, maybe (1 in 6 chance of 1-6 damage).

It will fight out a little differently against a rotating base as the Stingers will have to get closer on Turn 1 so that they can keep station on the same weapon arc for the entire approach, but that's only going to give the base maybe 1-2 more kills on that turn as the +2 shift is still going to be problematic.

So, if we are planning for a hot Klingon dice we are talking about assuming the base takes out ~2 on turn 1 and ~11 on turn 2 for a total of 13-14 dead. Since every Stinger that is not destroyed will do 25 damage, that means that 18 would hurt the base a bit (100 damage -30 shield, 10 reinforcement from btty and remaining energy and another -9 armor for 51 internals), and 22-24 would wreck it for sure (tack on another 100-150 internals). Even if there were a couple boxes here and there, the ships could move in safely and capture or kill it without risk.

This does require 240 points of Stingers which requires a fleet much higher in point value than the BATS, but still why risk ships when you can get the job done with expendable units?

Now there are some interesting range games that I did not consider above but I'm not going to go back up and re-calculate Smile. If the base holds fire at range 4 (the first firing opportunity where the phaser 4's guarantee a cripple thru EM) or even if it does fire the p-4's for the 5 guaranteed cripples, the Hydrans can drop EM during Speed Change and be eligible to fire at Range 2, getting significant damage out of the ones that will be destroyed by the base. They will do less damage (avg 17 per) and more importantly less guaranteed damage (damage range is 6-22) but firing 2/3 of the stingers at that range at the cost of getting a few more killed (using me too rules to only fire with Stingers that are fired upon) would be better than only firing what survives at range 0.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

duxvolantis wrote:

So, if we are planning for a hot Klingon dice we are talking about assuming the base takes out ~2 on turn 1 and ~11 on turn 2 for a total of 13-14 dead. Since every Stinger that is not destroyed will do 25 damage, that means that 18 would hurt the base a bit (100 damage -30 shield, 10 reinforcement from btty and remaining energy and another -9 armor for 51 internals), and 22-24 would wreck it for sure (tack on another 100-150 internals). Even if there were a couple boxes here and there, the ships could move in safely and capture or kill it without risk.

This does require 240 points of Stingers which requires a fleet much higher in point value than the BATS, but still why risk ships when you can get the job done with expendable units?


Remember you didn't actually kill as many as you said, all those disrupters were cripples, that means more phaser 3s firing at the base and more stingers that still need to be finished off. 1 phaser 4 shot was probably a cripple, out of 13-14 dead you mention probably only half? are actually dead. Another 6 or so are still phaser 3s will add in other 20 or so damage.

Also remember that after the base has fired there is little else it can do, so if the remains of 18 stingers come in and fire on impluse 6/7/8 for 100 damage, they will also get to fire on impulse 1 for another 100+ damage (even if they get killed at the same time), on the same shield. That is unlikey to be survivable. Also worth noting, that 100+ damage will quite likely leave a lot less power on the base for the following turn, that can make finishing off the remaining the stingers (even cripples that are still firing phaser 3s at it) problematic.

Also worth remembering, it takes less to kill a base than a ship relative to the internal count it has. The way its power depletes has it taking frame quite quickly.

Allowing for those cripples you are looking at say 120 damage on turn 2, or 70 internals, that averages what?, say 17 power, leaving ~13 power to finish off the remainder, and you are about to take another 120 at the start of turn 3 as well.

So I doubt you need more than 180 points of stingers.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:

So I doubt you need more than 180 points of stingers.


I agree, but mostly because of my original oversight of not having the "about to die" Stingers fire at range 2. I assumed "good luck" on part of the Klingon (always a good plan to never send the minimum). If the Klingon had bad luck with his disruptors it could be even fewer.

Now the more you are able to send, then more will survive (because if you send a good critical mass then the base will die on turn 2 or at least have a lot fewer possible weapons to fire).

Note that all of this assumes a non-rotating base which is almost alway stupid. Bases are almost always set to rotate for a reason.

A rotating base is going to get some more kills/cripples on the way in.

Good point about the cripples.

Even 180 points of Stingers is more than the base because you'd need some ships to carry them there. A couple Rangers would do it (at 222 pts). Not sure if there is a more efficient way to get 18 Stingers to a base barring stuff not yet in FC.
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assume the Stingers are being sent in as a strike by a distant carrier.
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 228

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Base and stingers Reply with quote

Remember the stacking rules for the stingers
You can only fire 3 from a hex side. Wiith a rotating base this makes the problem harder

Nicole
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry the stinger post was to the. Wrong thread

With kizinti vs bs and no bs defenders you could launch suicide shuttles in turn 1 impulse 8 at range 24. Then launch in turns 2,3,4 as previously described for turns 1,2,3. this would give you the number of additional seeking weapons equal to the number of drone frigates that the station would have to deal with in turn 4.

Nicole
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Capt Jack
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of staying at range and blowing the BS up.

I would think Orions would be a better option. Shocked Launch all drones over turn brake, then follow in to range 15. Then circle the base firing drones and phasers. Ensure you turn to get all phasers to bear and if hit just circle the other way.
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