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Kzinti vs BS
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Spacecowboy87
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Joined: 03 Jan 2012
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Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Kzinti vs BS Reply with quote

I ran a simulation where three Kzinti ships (BC,NCA,CL) tried to take down a Klingon battlestation by standing off and firing mass drones. The base had no other units in play, and the Kzintis were using the constant-supply drone technique (fire 3 racks, reload 1 every turn) and were also double-firing (impulse 8, impulse 1).
I found that the battlestation was able to handle all the drones, and would not take significant damage over a ten-turn span.
QUESTION is: How many Kzinti ships would it take to bring down a battlestation using this technique? (Note: I realize this is an impractical tactic. I was just fooling around).
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can probably answer your own question with the results you have, if you were to take those three ships and unload everything impulse 8, then follow the drones in getting two stacks together and firing normal weapons once you close, the base won't stand a chance. ~24 drones and 12 disruptors plus phasers = one dead base. You will have a crippled NCA or BC or destroyed CL in exchange.
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Spacecowboy87
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I do understand the whole follow-your-drones thing. My point was, can it be done stand-off style-- with all ships remaining at range 21-24, and being within a reasonable BPV range.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have my shop cards in front of me as I type this, but you are using the wrong ships and the wrong tactics.

1. All your ships should have double drone control and as many racks as posssible at the point value you designate.

2. Your maximum constant rate of drone launch is irrelevant. You need to maximize your single turn number (and then take the turns necessary to reload).

To accomplish #1 tell me your point value and I'll give you your fleet (or tell you it can't be done at those points).

To accomplish #2 start at range 25. On impulse 8 launch maximum drones just on the FA. The next turn, on impulse 8 those drones reach range 2 and you moved tout fleet at least one hex closer. Some number of those drones are killed, but presumably not all. You launch another full set. On the following turn, either immediately or after the remaining turn one drones are killed, you launch another full set. This allows you to get 3 turns (minus whatever from turn one the base can kill from range 2) to hit on one turn. That will either be enough damage to leave at least one internal left on the base after the next set of three arrive or it will not. If it does, you have won, if not it is still a stalemate.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Paul notes above, it really comes down to how much you want to min-max. It also depends on whether you mean using that tactic and only that tactic - or would you for example close in for some direct fire as well (or are you trying to do it with no direct fire of any kind as an academic exercise?).

Assuming all drone attack (and no direct fire) and the base only shooting drones, the things to overcome:

The BATs can repair 2 'random' internals a turn, so you need to do more than that if you are dribbling damage in via burnthroughs.

Without going through it in detail, I reckon it can handle ~19 drone impacts, max, in one turn before taking actual hits, a bit of variance as it depends on disrupters and phaser 3s.

Whilst you are reloading it can repair 15 shields a turn unless it has already lost power. If you had 4 racks and they are all empty it will take you 4 turns to fully reload a cruiser size ship, that is 60 shields it repairs as well as 24 dam con.

The force you have above can't handle the BATs with drones alone as it can't put out enough, though you can beat it readily if you use your direct fire as well.


3 ships with 4 racks + control 12 ships (3 command cruisers or drone frigates) can do it, but not with Pauls tactics, they can have 24 drones impacting on turn 2 with the standard impulse 8/1 pattern, that is enough to get 4+ drones through. Then you can do that again before running out for another 4+ drone hits. You will have done more damage than it can repair whilst you reload. Pauls tactic wastes a volley in this case, as the first 12 that end at range 2 will all be shot down in the 'spare' turn so contribute nothing.

3 Medium drone cruisers are what you are looking at for a decently cheap option (393 points) that doesn't faff around wearing the BATs down. With 7 racks and 12 control they can dump 21 on impulse 8 of turn 1 and another 15 on impulse 1 of turn 2 - that is 36 drones hitting on turn 2. The base can't handle that, in fact it may well be pretty much toast without even needing a second volley.

Alternatively you don't need control 12 ships unless you want to minimize ships numbers, you can have a less 'cheesy' force do it just as well, 4 normal frigates have the same useful (in this context) drone capability as 3 drone frigates, i.e they can output 24 drones per wave as well.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee,
At range 2, can a BATS really take out 12 drones reliably? Maybe. I have never looked at a FED COM BATS. An SFB BATS could not reliably do that.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that I have had a look at the cards, I am going to stick with my original plan.

3 Kzinti drone Frigates cost 21 points less than the base. They can put 18 drones at range 2 to the base at the end of turn 2. The base, in return (we can assume best possible base with a Kzinti attacker and go with a Klingon) has 5 p-4, and 2 drone racks for automatics kills, that leaves 4 disruptors and 4 p-3 to kill 11 drones. That means, at a minimum there will be 3 drones left from the turn 1 launch. Most likely, however, there will be 6 or 7, let's assume 6 for now (though if this is really an "infinite turns" scenario, there would actually be 11 left (well, 10, because in an "infinite turns" scenario, the base fires all 4 p-3's at 1 drone)).

OK, turn 3, there are 6 drones at range 2 and 18 drones at range 18. On impulse 1, the 6 drones hit. We'll assume the base uses its p-3s and tractors 2 (and launches its 2 drones at 2 of the range 18 drones). We'll assume it ends up using 3 total tractors, because the p-3s fail to kill 1 drone. Now, at the launch step of turn 3, impulse 1 there are 3 drones in tractor and 2 drones with drones targeting them and 16 untargetted drones. Tracking is dropped on the drones with drones targeting them and 1 of the tractored drones. This leaves 16 in flight and 2 tractored and now, again from range 18, 18 more drones launched.

So, down 4 p-3's and 3 of 6 tractors, the base has to deal with 34 drones that turn. It can use 6 p-4s to kill 5 automatically, leaving it 28 drones against 2p-3s and 5 disruptors and 3 tractors. Assume all have 100% kill rate and you get the base being hit with 18 drones.

If I am missing something, let me know.

I did assume a non-rotating base. But, even if it is rotating, let's be very generous and assume it only gets hit with half of those drones (because it got to use 2 p-4's and a disruptor at longer range against the turn 1 drones and because it "ate a drone or two" on a shield that would rotate away), that is still too much damage (108) for the base to take on turn 3.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, It maybe something others don't use, but we always use the sensor rules in the latest rule book with bases to make them a bit tougher, and a BATs gets 4 sensors. So he can nobble another 4 drones automatically. That's why I'm assuming it could reliably down 12+ drones at range 2.

4: sensors
5: ph4s
2: drones
1+: 4 disrupters + 4 ph3s.
1+ from the ph4s /disrupter that would have rotated (not sure I've ever seen a non rotating base used)


PS: I was forgetting the drone frigate had 6 racks as well as 12 control. That ship is just so under pointed!


Last edited by storeylf on Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How is it that the drones are ending a turn at range 2? Launch at range 25, move 24 hexes/turn, that's range 1, where the base can tractor before impact. You'd be better to launch at range 24, that way last firing opp before impact is Range 3.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
How is it that the drones are ending a turn at range 2? Launch at range 25, move 24 hexes/turn, that's range 1, where the base can tractor before impact. You'd be better to launch at range 24, that way last firing opp before impact is Range 3.


Example: If you are on the BATs 'centerline', but with it off your 2 or 6 then you can launch the drones so they do not face directly at the base (out your #1). That means they 'waste' a move having to move straight ahead and don't close for that move.


The above is the best way of getting drones in the air that will hit the second turn after launch. If you launch closer, or straight at the base they either hit a turn earlier or end at range 1 (eaiser to shoot/tractor).


Last edited by storeylf on Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
How is it that the drones are ending a turn at range 2? Launch at range 25, move 24 hexes/turn, that's range 1, where the base can tractor before impact. You'd be better to launch at range 24, that way last firing opp before impact is Range 3.


line your ships up at range 25 (maximum firing distance) directly on the hexline of the base. Then launch the drones so they are oblique FA. Thus, their first move of 24 keeps them at range 25. 25-23 = 2.

This is the only way to get three waves of drone to impact all on the same turn, so you are definitely not better-off launching them at range 24. you will launch your second and third sets of drones from range 18, so they will "jump" from 3 to 0.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just looked at the base sensor rules. They make me chuckle as yet another mockery of the Fed Com point system. The base gets 4 Special Sensors. These cost nothing. The base was either intentionally over-pointed prior to this addition or is intentionally under-pointed now.

In either event, the SS would subtract 8 from the number of drones hitting.

Rotation is a harder thing to determine. It subtracts 2 or 3 for sure, but then it also allows the base to take drone impacts on different shields, which given that this attack comes on turns 3, then 8 then every six turns there after, means you need to hit with enough drones to cause significant damage.

The ships best able to do this for the least number of points are obvious - Kzinti drone frigates. The number you need will depend on the rules you use.

It is not clear to me that a rotating base with special sensors can be killed by 3, they can certainly be killed by 4. The number of turns is also relevant. If it is an "infinite turns game" then any weapons that have a chance to miss, do, eventually, miss. In that game you launch your turn 1 drones, watch what happened on turn 2, impulse 8 fire. If all his "chance to miss" weapons miss, then you launch your next set as planned. If any hit, then you just reload. In that way you take the disruptors out of the equation and force p-3s to be fired in groups of 4. For that game (infinite turns) 3 Frigates are all you need, even against a rotating base with special sensors. Since the range 2 fire leaves you with 6 drones (and the special sensors will reduce your next set of 36 drones to 32).

Assuming there is some number of turns before the game ends, you probably need a fourth drone frigate against a base that has both special sensors and rotates.
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Spacecowboy87
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my simulation, the base was rotating. And it just so happened that every time the double wave of drones impacted, they were centerlined on one of the base's "arms," meaning every possible weapon could bear on them. My next step will be to time it so the waves arrive between two arms, reducing defensive fire by nearly a third. I also am not using the special sensors "rule."
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
My point was, can it be done stand-off style-- with all ships remaining at range 21-24


Well, if this ^ is taken into account, then you can't do the second and third launches at range 18. Best you can manage is two waves of drones simultaneously.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Quote:
My point was, can it be done stand-off style-- with all ships remaining at range 21-24


Well, if this ^ is taken into account, then you can't do the second and third launches at range 18. Best you can manage is two waves of drones simultaneously.


You can still get 3 waves in 1 turn which is all the timing was doing (there was never 3 waves hitting 'simultaneously').

turn/impulse.

1/8: launch 18 drones at range 25
2/8: the first wave are at range 2. launch 18 drones at range 24.
3/1: the first wave impacts. the second wave is at range 21. launch 18 drones at range 21.
3/8: waves 2 and 3 (36 drones) impact.
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