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The Plasma Problem
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Klingon of Gor
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 130

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:

Quote:
This all brings me back to what is the easiest fix, and it still seems clear to me that adding EPTs is it. It is a one paragraph rule that improves plasma without the need to change all the cards (or without the need to refer to a chart instead of what is on the cards - though this has been done in at least one case with the LDR).

That still does nothing to help the huge point problem Romulans have for the inclusion of a useless device, which I also agree is a separate problem. One for which I have no obvious solution. Cloak in SFB is both more restricting and much more effective as a defense. Part of what makes it so restricting, however, is that acceleration limits in SFB. The cloak is a much more complicated issue.


What would you think of adding EPTs as a Romulan only weapon then?

It seems to me that the plasma problem is partly that plasma takes time to work, because often you fire a seeker not in the expectation of getting a decisive hit, or even of getting a hit at all, but of setting up a situation down the road from which you can profit. If you're Gorns, that might consist of getting the enemy to turn away, so you can chase them, and later carronade them. But against say, Feds on a closed board, you simply may not have the time to play that kind of a patience game, because they're going to jam you up in a corner and hit you with overloaded photons. The Romulans then have a problem a bit like the Klingons do, when fighting a heavy crunch race on a closed board. (An awful lot of Fed and Hydran tactics come down to jamming someone up in a corner. Take away those corners, and they start to look a lot less intimidating.)
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mattruh
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Joined: 07 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would these proposed new weapons/rules work?

Last edited by mattruh on Thu May 03, 2012 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is where the specifics were discussed at one point

Last edited by storeylf on Thu May 03, 2012 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:

What would you think of adding EPTs as a Romulan only weapon then?


I suspect that Paul would give them to the Gorn if they could only be given to one empire. He thinks Roms are already the better of the 2 plasma empires in the tourney game.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. Yes, I am talking about balance in the tournament (or any other not-huge closed map). You cannot balance this game, on points, for all conditions. That is as true of SFB as it is Fed Com.


Fully agree the points can not be 'balanced' for all conditions.

In terms of map size I woud point them at a larger map than the tourney has. The tourney map is the smallest map likely to be played on, the floating map the largest. Something in between would be the compromise.

I also happen to believe that sort of larger fixed map provides the best and most interesting games with a wider choice of tactical options and more chance for all empires to have some time to engage on their strengths or exploit the enemy weaknesses.
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee,
I know this is something we have not yet done, but have you played plasma against D&D on a large map? My gut tells me that would be hopeless. But maybe I have that wring.

EPTs if implemented should not be race restricted. I think the Roms fair better than the Gorn, true. But that again is a tournament only perspective. Other than the Vulture and the KE, Roms are in the same boat as Gorns, except they have to pay a lot for the cloak as well. I'll say this as well. The cloak is very strong against anyone without seekers or ESGs.

Since a legal tournament fleet is a Vulture and two KEs, the Roms fair better in the tournament than the Gorns. However, outside that environment, the Roms are worse.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
Lee,
I know this is something we have not yet done, but have you played plasma against D&D on a large map? My gut tells me that would be hopeless. But maybe I have that wring.


Not really up on all the SFB lingo, after first thinking 'Dungeons and Dragons' and dismissing that I'm thinking you mean somthing like drone and disrupter (klink and kzniti)?

Lets give it a go, every one has good and bad matchups, it'll be interesting to see what happens. Certainly the larger map I like because it makes Klingons far more viable than the smaller map where they suck big time.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
I'll say this as well. The cloak is very strong against anyone without seekers or ESGs.


Yup - that would be Hydrans Smile

Oh and tholians as well, though that is little consolation for Roms, plasma vs Webs aint a great matchup.

Oh and Andro I suppose, though TRs (Hs in particular) still hurt even after +4 range and half damage.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

D&D does refer to "disruptor and drones". AKA Klingon, Kzinti, and WYN fish.

FWIW, I do agree that cloak is not powerful enough against seekers. On the other hand, it is supposed to suck against ESG. That's just part of the SFU.
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The_Rock
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In SFB the cloak is very effective against ESG. The perceptiin that it is not comes from people who don't fully understand the interactions of the rellevant rules. Appart from its instant and unmittigated damage, the ESG simply allows a chance (a 0% chance from simeone playing correctly) of retaining lock-on.

In Fed Com the extremely detrimental effects of a "voided" cloak make cloaking against ESGs worse than not cloaking. Having reduced effectiveness vs. ESG was the right balance (as it is in SFB). Making it actually detrimental to cloak against ESGs was poor balancing.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:

Quote:
I'll say this as well. The cloak is very strong against anyone without seekers or ESGs.


I haven't personally played Romulans against Lyrans or Hydrans. I can see where fusion Hydrans would struggle to do much of anything to a cloaked ship. On the other hand, +4 to the range doesn't seem as though it should be that big of a deal to hellbores. Reducing the hellbore damage means that the cloaked ships will last longer, but it still seems like a starfish and oyster scenario. Sooner or later, the oyster is lunch.

On the other hand, given that Hydrans are reasonably well protected against seeking plasma, the issue is very likely moot.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:

On the other hand, given that Hydrans are reasonably well protected against seeking plasma, the issue is very likely moot.


BINGO!
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a followup from the current FCOL tournament, M1A1DAT's Klingon's have also defeated Phil Moore's Gorns (M1A1DAT's Klingons defeated Patrick's Gorns in an earlier round). That leaves Paul (The_Rock) as the last undefeated plasma player in the current FCOL tournament. So, all eyes look to see the outcome of the third round game between Paul (Romulan) and Lee Storey (Orions with maxed out drones).
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m1a1dat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil put up a good fight. He destroyed my C7 but at the cost of almost all his plasmas and a heavily crippled BCH and damaged BDD. He was then left in close to a couple of angry, but unhurt, Klingons with only a couple F torps and that was not enough to keep me away or hurt me enough and wreck his undamaged CS.
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DaveP.
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EPT's would also give a good reason to take heavier plasmas in Orion option mounts.
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