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Proposed changes to cloaking
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krellex wrote:
The lesson I learned the hard way was that against the Gorn, you BETTER stay outside of carronade range while cloaked.


I did get carronaded under cloak, but it wasn't that effective, I took 4 damage I think from 2 F tubes (small ships don't have the power to fill up the tube on the fly).
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played in the online tourney
Me vulture, king eagle
Opponent playing his third game
Had federation bcf and ddl

Turn one the fed Bcf launched 2 drones
This fight was won by the romulans bolting at range nine then cloaking end of turn two with four phaser 1 targetting ddl with 3 bolted r and 2 bolted f
The two drones each were targted 3 p1 and one P3

Both drones were destroyed and the ddl took 2 R's and one bolted f and 10 points damage from the 4 p1's
The ddl could not make speed 24 after the damage was applied

In turn 3 the fed hit the cloaked king eagle with his 4 full over loads from the bcf and all his p1 and 2 carronades and did not drop a shield, thats when he conceded

we played under the current cloaking rules but If we had played under the proposed cloak rules the 6 p1 targeted at the drones would have targeted the ddl .

The effect of the proposed rules would have been freeing up weapons to fight rather than deal with a minor drone threat.

I hope to play other games under the proposed cloak rules.

I hope the proposed cloak changes take effect in the near future.

Nicole
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played in online tourney
Romulan vs gorn using Mike West's proposed cloak rules
Romulan won in turn 5 with Gorn hdd destroyed. And gorn hbc with about 90 to 100 damage. Romulan king eagle had
About 15 boxes left vulture undamaged with only 2 shields checked off

The threat of cloaking greatly affects the gorn not the actual cloak it makes the gorn get closer.

The hdd got devistated in turn 3 when the vulture hit with 2
Bolted r a bolted f and 6 p1. After turn 3 the hdd had 6 boxes left.


Only a total of 5 cloaking puses were used including the fads
In turn one the ke cloaked and emergency decellerated to drop the 60 point of plasm s comming then immediatly decloaked. As full cloak occurred in impulse 8 the KE could just have out run the s on turn 2 under the current rules. The vulture faded to reduce an s that had been reduced to 15 str by phaser fire. Thenthe vulture fade back in. This action was the same under both sets of rules.

I like the proposed rules vs drones but is harsh vs gorn plasma.

Nicole
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, are you saying the proposed rules were too harsh against the Gorn, or simply that the Gorn wasn't fully prepared to deal with what the cloak can do?
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of thought that they were harsh vs the gorn . They made him close because if he launched at any kind of range it gave a chance to cloak with emergency deceleration. Then plasma have no chance to hit.

He however did not think they were that harsh. Initially he was not prepared to deal with it but he adapted.

However this keeps the romulan speed down because they needed to maintain a reserve of power necessary to cloak.

i played the romulan.

nicole
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall I like the new proposed rules. They slow the romulans down so I never had movement priority. becaused he launched 3 plasma S the first turn and I did not launch, I became the aggressor stalking him for most of the rest of the game.

He only carronaded his Fs on the last 2 turn when we closed.

The romulan ships I played have a very hard time going speed 24 and being able to fight effictively.

I think the new proposed rules are very necessary vs drone swarms, or cloak is useless and expensive.

Nicole
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't think the new rules were that harsh vs Gorns. The first time you play against such Roms then you may get caught out by the fact that your plasma is spoofed by the Romulans, potetntially at quite a short range. However, as you noted that means energy for cloaks, if you are also going fast to keep your options open then you get rather tight on energy. The Gorns do have carronades, and coming out of cloak against a plasma thrower is not all that easy either.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played a good game the other week using romulans against Feds, and used cloaks quite a bit. Knowing that the Fed drones would not be that useful the Fed didn't launch them from long range, nor against cloaking out ships. So whilst cloaks didn't actually spoof any drones, they had an impact on how the game was played, especially in providing the freedom to allow the romulans to actually use their claoking device.
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Monty
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I played the Gorn in the matchup.

Knowing your primary weapon system can be nullified by an ED and four impulses worth of cloak energy is a little challenging to plan for and wrap new tactics around. To say the proposal doesn't hurt the Gorn would be a little disingenuous, it certainly doesn't help their situation but that shouldn't be the only deciding factor in moving forward.

The balance is to fire just enough plasma to force him into cloak while leaving enough to deal with him coming out while using Carronades to try and force him out. Is that ratio 50/50, hope not/not sure? Getting Carronaded under cloak is no big deal with the damage reduction because you don't have good control of the impacted shield on ingress. If you're going to give up some plasma to force the opponent into cloak then use the rest when he comes out, is it no different than taking your chances bolting reducing the yield by 50%?

My concern is in any change that would turn Gorn V Rom matchups into pure Boltfests. The sample size of trials doesnt support that yet but I could see it heading that way. I would recommend anyone testing this try both sides and give a full analysis. It was a fun challenge.

When it's all said and done I'm not sure how necessary the speed graduations are. It may be simpler to remember and to the point to just require a full stop to drop all seekers. It's likely that an ED will be necessary anyway.

On a side note, playing this setup with EPT's would be fascinating. EPT's for both sides of course. If Rom uses an R as EPT he's probably going to be going very slow tocloak. Can the Gorn use fewer tubes to force the Rom into cloak while utilizing the EPT? Can he soften up enough shields to make carronading the cloaker from any angle viable even with the damage reduction.

Monty
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monty wrote:
To say the proposal doesn't hurt the Gorn would be a little disingenuous, it certainly doesn't help their situation but that shouldn't be the only deciding factor in moving forward.


I'm not saying that it doesn't hurt them, The new proposals 'hurt' anyone with seekers to some extent or the other. The question is whether it is too harsh.

Ignoring this tourney where you are playing with points adjustments that favored the romulan at 0.92 to your 0.96, adjustments that probably don't reflect the proposed cloak rules either. Point for point the Gorns as a gross generalisation have a bit more plasma than the Roms, and slightly heftier ships - though not as much as they could due to the quite significant mispointing of the BC hulls. They also have similar or better phasers and carronades.

In an existing a fight under existing cloak rules I wouldn't really expect the romulans to have a good record. The new cloak rules I believe really just evens things out. We did play a couple of gorn vs rom games, and yes my opponent was caught out the first time by the decel and cloak. But once you are used to that, and work through in your head the key ranges you should still have enough of those listed advantages to handle the situation in a much tighter and more interesting game.

It may be that you will be in for a long game, then again plasma vs plasma tends to be anyway.

Size of battle is possibly important. Whilst 1 or 2 ships may seem to struggle wearing down a cloaked romulan, 3 Gorn ships carronading and phasering from range 0 through a cloaked ship can punch through a shield and aim at power. Power hits are going to hurt the romulan who needs to cloak or go fast.

Equally the romulan who cloaks and EDs with 1 ship has the dilemma of what to do with the other ships, does he end up splitting his force and having the uncloaked ones outnumbered, or does he cloak and ED them as well, effectively removing them from the battle.

A stopped ship struggles to turn, which makes positioning the Gorn ships a lot easier. Indeed if the romulan is without enough power for a HET it can safely ED itself behind the cloaked ship. Even if it has enough power it may still be fairly safe, as it will eat any remaining plasma as soon as it fades in (or fails the cloaked HET roll) and before it can launch its own.

If anything were to change I'd first re-look at the question I asked several posts ago - when does the ED cause a seeker to drop? At the moment it was said to kick in as soon as you ED, if you change it to dropping seekers during the cloak phase then ED with plasma/drones close is less useful, as it will get the 3 or 4 hexes movement whilst you are stopped and impact before it would drop, that is a fair increase in threat range. That can force him into a cloak or run decision before you make a launch decision.
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Monty
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf

Are you and Nicole going to play the new cloak rule in your next tourney match? More plasma v plasma testing would be good.

Monty
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I'd not even thought about the question.
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played in the online tourney vulture , ke vs orion dw,dw,br . All armed in option mounts with plasma f and wing phaser1. The new proposed cloak rule had minimal impact but could have potentially had large impact.

Reason for miniminal impact was roms only cloaked 5 impulses in turn 1 total. Roms at range 12 going speed 8 is too far for plasm f to be dangerous under current rules. Would have hit for 18 points with with 6 reinfocement for net 12 at best Under current rules. Carronade brought down shield hit using proposed rules on ke.

Where this could have made a difference is at close range where under the proposed rules if you are at a range that will take the seeking weapons more than 2 impulses to impact (with the target moving away) the seeking weapons can be dropped by a ship cloaking immediatly then when becoming fully cloaked and emergeny decelerating.

What the proposed cloak rules allow the romulan to do is fight at a closer range when seeking weapons are present.

The game was won by romulans making 2 rolled hets in a row.

Nicole
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certainly it didn't make any difference to me playing against you in that game. You cloaked at a range I was not going to launch at anyway, and when you came out of cloak I had no seekers to worry about.

Our test games also showed what you said above as well, it means the Roms can afford to engage at a closer range with a 'get out' vs seekers. It also means they can engage slower against seekers, as they are not quite as dependent on speed as their defense, though that can be a bit more risky.


As noted in the tourney thread, I'd be interested in a replay if you have another sunday free soon.
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m1a1dat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A possible solution for the problem with plasmas targeted on the cloaking ship being to easy to shake off by cloaking is to increase the range at which they lose targeting. In SFB plasmas have counter jamming built in (and imo should not be affected by Orion stealth coating). Or bring back pseudo plasma!
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