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Proposed changes to cloaking
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 639

PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I don't think the Gorn will get all to hurt by this. But again just to reiterate, I am completely biased and would live to see a Romulans get some love.

Caronnades help to make up for the loss and can do quite a bit of damage. Imagine this scenario.

Romulan ship cloaks after having a S-torp and F-torp launched at it. The Gorn still has another S-torp an F, plus the carronade, plus the initiative as the Romulan is forced to a max of 16. 10 to 16 points of damage from carronades plus another 5 or so from phasers will add up pretty quickly.

OTOH The Romulan could try to shake the Gorn and force his damage onto a couple of different shields, if the Gorn slows down the Romulan will have a better chance of landing a brutal shot.

At least it has more tactical implications than "go fast".
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Klingon of Gor
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Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Gorns would get hurt pretty badly, but the only way to really settle the argument would be to test it out in a game. My concern is that in process of trying to improve the cloaking rules, we end up making things worse. I don't think it's possible to know, ahead of time, everything about exactly how a rules change will affect game balance, even if you do a certain amount of playtest. Players may discover, over time, tactics that the playtestsers didn't think of. I don't think the designers of Fedcom fully appreciated the effect that doing away with the housekeeping rules would have on play balance in Fed-Klingon matchups. That isn't meant as a put down, because, as I say, designers and playtesters are imperfect creatures. They do their best, but simply cannot know or anticipate everything. The reasons for doing away with the housekeeping rules were, in my view, sound, and I would not bring them back. But the Feds did do awfully well out of it.

Absent playest information I'm not going to flatly say that you're wrong, though I'm a long way from being sold on the idea. I don't think Fedcom can be perfectly balanced between all races and in all situations, but I want to see at least a rough balance between those races who are traditional enemies, and I'm concerned that this would hit the Gorns really hard when facing Romulans.
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am pretty sure that it would not, but then again as I said I am biased. In a fleet game it would be very bad for the Romulans especially as the extra plasma F's would really eat into the cloaked ship. But it is not really an issue. TPTB have decided a long time ago that plasma races and the cloak are OK. I have been lobbying for changes for almost 3 years, I don't expect anything to happen this time either.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But it seems to me that if cloak can defeat incoming plasma, even part of the time, then the Gorns are going to end up being hunted like rats.


I can't see Gorns being overpowered by Roms.

The primary defense against plasma is still speed, be it to outrun entirely or at least long enough to make it manageable. A cloaked ship is base speed 16 max, both during cloak and for all of any turn it started cloaked.

That changes the dynamic of cloaking from currently getting plasma'd to death as you cloak, to how to safely uncloak afterwards. Sure I can cause incoming plasma to drop by cloaking. But once I'm stuck at speed 16 my options are limited in terms of uncloaking to attack the Gorn. The moment you declare uncloak you get a plasma S at you, probably from fairly close by, you are stuck in Fade and are at base speed 16 with a plasma closing. You can immediately recloak, but you are still base speed 16 and are another impulse in Fade with plasma closing. If you are actually looking to attack someone with your plasma as well as you uncloak, you are probably planning on facing them to some extent (especially if you have a plasma R). That means that Gorn plasma will be hitting you fast as you won't be moving away from it. If you are moving away then you are uncloaking in what is probably a disadvantageous position with the Gorn behind you.

You also have the choice of when to uncloak. The earlier you uncloak the more energy you will have to do stuff, but the longer you are stuck at speed 16. That works if you can quickly get your shot off and recloak, other wise you may be in trouble. The later you uncloak the less time you are at speed 16 before next turn, but quite a few ships (Klingon versions notably) can be looking short on power by the turn end having spent 6 or 7 impulses cloaked.

The recent change to being in Fade in at start of turn helps, but that is predictable, and hence counterable by the Gorn.

The ability to uncloak, pull out an enemy plasma and recloak if the ranges are right is useful, but may still be hard to pull off, and isn't actually going to kill anyone.

However, the above problems are much more 'interesting' in nature than the current suicide of even thinking about cloaking against plasma ships.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please be careful when going into tactics. As long as we keep the focus on possible changes to cloak, we are OK, but let's not diverge into a complete Rom/Gorn tactics discussion.
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We aren't talking tactics Mike... Just Interactions Laughing heh heh heh... I'll be leaving now Cool
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:
The reasons for doing away with the housekeeping rules were, in my view, sound, and I would not bring them back. But the Feds did do awfully well out of it.

Slightly off topic, but I agree entirely with this; however, I still miss the ability to run in with a full phaser capacitor....

End of digression. Sorry.
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Soggy_Crackers
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Joined: 04 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still don't see how adding the seeker drop will convince me to use the cloak more frequently.

I still see the main issue with the cloak being that it's just not power efficient enough for use.

For example, when facing a seeking enemy currently as Rom I'll keep the 'speed is life' motto and plot speed 24. At 24 it's pretty easy to avoid drones, I may have to accelerate once but so be it. For plasma I'm keeping 24 as well for obvious reasons, and can potentially maneuver to avoid or run the plasma down enough to just take the hit.

I'm going to use 3 ships for this the KE, Skyhawk and the KR7.
So for the KE and K7R to go from a base speed of 16 to 24 I need to spend 8 points of power. To cloak in the KE costs 6 and the K7R costs 10. The Skyhawk would cost me 4 points to go from 16 to 24, and 4 to cloak. I'd rather spend the energy on speed in all these cases for three reasons (of course these are just my opinions):

1) I'd rather have the higher base speed, I know I'm phaser short in most Rom ships, so I'm choosing speed as my primary seeker defense
2) If I cloak that ship is out of the fight for 16 sub pulses! If I'm not cloaked I can still use tracs and phasers to defend the ship (and / or others in the fleet)
3) I can only pull this trick once per turn. So if I cloak to drop some seekers, I'm a sitting duck now that I've burned my energy and forced to speed 16. I fully expect my opponent to hold some seekers back (two drones, an S torp etc) to punish the pants off me when I fade in. I now have less power, and no speed to defend with.

Sure when I'm forced down to speed 16 due to damage the cloak may be better, but at that point if I don't have energy for speed 24 I probably don't to cloak either.
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Savedfromwhat
Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're looking at it with a very myopic view Martin. The way it stands now a cloak is completely useless against empires with seeking weapons. I don't want to convince anyone to use the cloak more frequently, but I would like to actually be able to cloak without being crippled or destroyed.

As it stands now in a fleet game 12 drones would hit for 72 points of damage. A Romulan CANNOT cloak in this situation. Now whether or not you have the energy is your problem.

Making the cloak cheaper to activate will NOT have an effect on its usefulness against empires with seeking weapons, because you still would be a fool to activate it.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Saved says, it isn't about convincing you to use it, is about allowing you to use it without getting blown up.

Cloak coud be zero cost and using it would still get you killed or in serious trouble against everyone but Hydrans.

You aren't necessarily looking to use cloak purely to drop seekers, you might be trying to use it against Feds or klingons for other reasons (e.g. avoid getting hit by overloads), but you can't because even the few drones they carry will hit you if you cloak.

Would you use it - maybe, maybe not. But for me the defining feature of Roms is the cloak (and not the plasma), yet it is almost useless in this game due primarily its naffness against the unbiquitous seekers.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee, we just agreed on something. INTERNET FIVE BUDDY!!!
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Soggy_Crackers
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Joined: 04 Apr 2012
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Location: London, Ontario

PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think you're looking at it with a very myopic view Martin.


I really don't see how I am as I give examples that affect fleet and duel scenarios, as well as making my proposal on what I think would help (lower the energy cost and raise the damage reduction %'s). In fact I made that suggestion to even keep in mind that FC is about simplicity, not adding rules..... so myopic I don't think so Wink

All I'm stating is that to me having seeking weapons drop as proposed, still doesn't address the issue that IMO maneuvering is still the better way to go. That is, I don't think that dropping seekers is ENOUGH to get cloaking to the point where it's worth the BVP cost. I guess I haven't stated that very clearly before, sorry for that.

In my opinion the reason why cloaking is not as powerful in FC as it was in SBF is the speed 24 drone issue. In SFB I knew those little buggers would catch me so I needed alternatives (cloak or WW), but in FC I know that if they do hit it's probably my own fault. The additional issue with this is that drones (and launched plasma) already have a hard time to hit since ships can match or exceed their speeds, so I think adding another method for seekers to have no effect at all might be a little too powerful.

Quote:
You aren't necessarily looking to use cloak purely to drop seekers, you might be trying to use it against Feds or klingons for other reasons (e.g. avoid getting hit by overloads), but you can't because even the few drones they carry will hit you if you cloak.


Yes, I agree with this. Please see my point #3 above as to why I don't think dropping the seeker will really help in this situation. However, would this not be better addressed by simply not allowing a launch against a ship in the 'fade out' phase? Maybe we should try looking at it from that perspective, just don't let seekers be targeted on a ship in the fade out phase? If they are going to just drop anyways why even allow the launch at that point? That even introduces an "Oh jeepers" moment when the Rom hits the cloaking switch and your opponent has no seekers in the air already, that would make the cloak a real threat and something to worry about Very Happy
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soggy_Crackers wrote:


Yes, I agree with this. Please see my point #3 above as to why I don't think dropping the seeker will really help in this situation. However, would this not be better addressed by simply not allowing a launch against a ship in the 'fade out' phase? Maybe we should try looking at it from that perspective, just don't let seekers be targeted on a ship in the fade out phase? If they are going to just drop anyways why even allow the launch at that point? That even introduces an "Oh jeepers" moment when the Rom hits the cloaking switch and your opponent has no seekers in the air already, that would make the cloak a real threat and something to worry about Very Happy


I don't understand. Your point 3 is that you can only cloak once a turn and then have to deal with being speed 16. How does not allowing seekers to be launched during fade 'better address' that perceived issue? You are doing nothing more than providing the cloaker with safety from seekers which precisely what we were discussing.
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Savedfromwhat
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are you saying you want to see a energy cost decrease AND no launching during fade out?

Because you haven't said that before. You just reiterated that the cost is too high.

I understand that you see cost as a problem, but in all honesty that is a problem that is not applicable to this discussion. The intent of this topic was to discuss cloaks vs. seeking weapons, energy cost of cloaking doesn't come into play until we are actually able to cloak without getting hit by a wave of seekers. So myopic..? Yes. But now it looks like you are on the same page as the rest of us.

What is your proposed fix Soggy? How much should the cost be lowered by for each of the different cloak costs? Again to be clear, no launching of seekers during fade out? (which btw, I think is a pretty good compromise as I have said before that just dropping seekers appears to be a bit OP on paper at least).
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Soggy_Crackers
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Joined: 04 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't understand. Your point 3 is that you can only cloak once a turn and then have to deal with being speed 16. How does not allowing seekers to be launched during fade 'better address' that perceived issue? You are doing nothing more than providing the cloaker with safety from seekers which precisely what we were discussing.


Sure thing, I'll expand (and the key in #3 was I'm speed 16, and low on energy not just the speed), and I'm going to include my proposal #s as well Smile

As the rules are now:
If you are at a decent range when you cloak for an attack run (say to avoid the overloads on the way in) you opponent launches two drones to keep you away. The drones don't drop, so they are going to hit for 50% damage.

With the drop:
If you are at a decent range when you cloak for an attack run (say to avoid the overloads on the way in) you opponent launches two drones to keep you away. The drones don't drop. Now, IMO if an opponent knows those drones are going to drop they are going to keep some in reserve to launch at you when you fade in for your launch, especially since I know my control is about to be emptied. When you now fade in there are x# of drones to be delivered at you, moving speed 16 and you have spent all your energy on cloaking. If those drones are going to impact in the same turn, you are still toast. This is where I don't think that adding the drop is enough as I don't have energy or speed to defend with. With my proposal you would have a little juice left over for a couple of tracs, acceleration etc.

Without the launch on fade out:
Short reason:
To move the balance of power to the Rom when cloaked, at any range, at any speed (16 or below of course).

Long explanation:
I cloak and now I am in control as I know there aren't any seekers to deal with while I'm fully cloaked, only when I fade in. IMO this moves the balance of power over to the Rom ship when cloaked. When I fade in, both me and my opponent launches. As it stands now, I may be ok... maybe.. However if we were to lower the energy cost of cloaking to half the intital value I still have enough energy to accelerate to 24 and keep the drones from impacting, or trac them. I really think that with just a few extra points of power after fading in than they currently do, that will give the Roms enough tactical options after using the cloaking device.
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