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Battleship vs Two ships

 
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Spacecowboy87
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject: Battleship vs Two ships Reply with quote

In a duel between a battleship and two smaller opponents, has anyone found that one side or the other could use a few more points to balance things out?
Do the two smaller ships need more points (say 5-10%) just to hang in there, or is their numerical superiority enough? Our group has stayed away from battleships for time constraints but now we're going to dive right in and have anywhere from 6-8 battleships on the board with perhaps untraditional alliances (it wasn't my idea). Would it be just plain dumb to choose two smaller ships in that arena, or would they have an edge?
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Wolverin61
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imho two smaller ships have the advantage over the one large ship with the same BPV. I don't really have any facts though.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a generalisation 1 larger is better than 2 smaller IMO.

The smaller ships probably have less shielding individually, so they take internals faster, and they have less padding so less internals are needed to render them ineffective. They usually have less batteries so they can battery less = more shield damage.

Smaller ships generally have less discretionary power, every weapon armed is more movement they give up - e.g. a disrupter on a 1/2 move cost ship is 4 moves, whereas on a DN it is 1 and a bit.

2 ships fire 2 seperate volleys so they can be batteried better.

Smaller ships have less DamCon, so the one getting hammered can't repair as fast as the larger one.

The only thing usually going for smaller ships is that they are likely more manouverable.

That's not to say some specific ship comparisons may swing it in favor of the lighter ships to some extent.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed.

In the few times I ran battles with a BB on one side, versus an even-point force of multiple smaller ships, it didn't end well for the little guys.

A poorly flown battleship could, of course, fail. However, if it uses it's strengths properly and focuses on crushing one opponent at a time, it is very, very hard to stop.

The other ships will harry it and eventually hurt it. They can certainly out-maneuver it. But they can't withstand the pounding a BB can dish out (again, assuming the BB is flown well enough to get that kill shot). A battleship with even a token consort to influence movement is all the more dangerous.

The times I ran these fights all ended with a BB that eventually took some trivial or notable internal damage and all its opponents either complete wrecks and limping away or destroyed outright.

All it took was one error that allowed the BB to wallow into a firing position that would have been merely painful from a like-sized opponent; from a battleship, that strike was crippling or nearly so and started the downhill slide in each game.

The key was for the battleship to not waste fire in distributed attacks on multiple targets. The "Fuzzy Wuzzy Fallacy" can kill a BB, it you let it. Constant, focused fire, even at long range and bad odds, from a BB onto one target is withering. A BB can take the other guys' punches, longer.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this question is a variation of one that comes up every now and again. Which will usually win out in a duel between one large ship and two smaller ships?

I've never used a battleship, but I have been in fights of a DN against two cruisers, a cruiser against a destroyer and frigate, and a cruiser against three frigates. In just about every case the large ship consistently wins. It can pick out one of the smaller ships and basically take it completely out with a single alpha strike. If the large ship can minimize its damage from the other smaller ship(s), then it has a tremendous advantage. The side with the small ships has to figure that one of the ships will get in one full strike, but that will probably be about all.

If the large ships splits its fire against multiple opponents, the small ships can win. The smaller ships can use their better maneuverability to concentrate their fire on one shield.

At least that's my two cents worth.
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Spacecowboy87
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the vibe I'm getting is to give the two ships a point bonus. Generally what classes would be best -- BC + CA? 2x BC? DN + BC?
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would you give the smaller ships a point bonus, any point change would just give the Larger ship a better victory level, since it would be point disadvantaged if you did that ----

Not saying that it wouldn't be disadvantaged even before you gave the smaller ones a bonus ---

Maybe a review of Victory Levels would give you a better grasp on how it works. And why a bonus wouldn't be prudent.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Why would you give the smaller ships a point bonus, any point change would just give the Larger ship a better victory level, since it would be point disadvantaged if you did that ----

Not saying that it wouldn't be disadvantaged even before you gave the smaller ones a bonus ---

Maybe a review of Victory Levels would give you a better grasp on how it works. And why a bonus wouldn't be prudent.


It is something to consider if you are using the victory consitions in the book, but that doesn't make it bad for the smaller ships.

Lets say I have a hypothetical BB at 380 points and 2 hypothetical ships at 190 points each.

As things stand the 2 smaller ships are usually going to be disadvantaged for the reasons noted earlier. If the BB destroys one smaller ship and damaged the other then the BB wins unless the smaller ships destroy the BB. The BB scores 209 points and the smaller ships only score 190 points with a cripple, so need the full 380 from a kill.

If we increase the smaller ships to 215 points each (430 points) total, then the the BB gets a bonus 50 points, but that still leaves the BB in
the same position. If he destroys 1 and damages the other he scores 287 points, so if he is destroyed the smaller ships win (he still loses if he kills 1 and cripples the other as well). But presumably the now better larger ships have a better chance of achieving that kill. And with the better smaller ships it is probably also the case that the BB has a harder time inflicting the same level of damage on them, again benefiting the smaller ships.

In a simple 2 vs 1, no time limit, to the death style game then a points bonus for the smaller ships isn't likely to benefit the larger ship in VP terms until you get to over 1/7th the larger ships cost (assuming identical smaller ships). When you get over that then you move to a case where the BB can die and still claim a win if he killed one and crippled the other.

Where it gets tricky if your scenario allows ships to readily disengage. The 380 point ship only gives up 95 points for disengaging. If he gets a 50 point bonus then he doesn't have to score much in order to claim a marginal victory via disengaging. If he can cripple 1 enemy (at 215points) whilst avoiding being crippled himself and then disengage he scores 158 points whilst giving up 95 so he claims a marginal victory.
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Sneaky Scot
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote]So he claims a marginal victory[/quote

But where's the fun in that?

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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would normally say that a battleship would have the advantage over two smaller ships, but there are always contingencies. A Fed battleship should be able to easily handle a couple of Klingon dreads, unless said battleship fires eight photon torpedoes at range 5 and scores only one hit. (Which I actually managed to do.) But that is an inherent risk of playing Feds. With average luck, a large volley of photons at range eight or less should seriously damage an enemy ship, but luck is not always average.

My opponent pointed out that two Kzinti dreads could keep putting out 24 drones a turn indefinitely(I did not bother to check this, but it sounds reasonable. Not many BBs could handle this, though the Lyran BB looks more or less drone proof. So it might matter which specific races were involved.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:
I would normally say that a battleship would have the advantage over two smaller ships, but there are always contingencies. A Fed battleship should be able to easily handle a couple of Klingon dreads


If you are talking about standard victory conditions, then yes the Fed gets such a huge bonus victory points advantage (179) that he only has to kill one DN (or cripple both) and he wins even he loses the BB. Not sure it would be easy, but he certainly has an advantage simply due to way victory points work in that case.

If you mean handle easily in a more natural sense then not really (e.g. survivor wins). The BB is going to have one really tough fight, 2 DNs will usually out point a BB by a significant margin (over 50% extra in the Klingon vs Fed example), having more firepower and being quite resilient themselves.


Quote:
My opponent pointed out that two Kzinti dreads could keep putting out 24 drones a turn indefinitely(I did not bother to check this, but it sounds reasonable


Not even remotely reasonable! Kzinti DNs only have 6 racks, they can output 12 a turn between them, before running out of drones after 4 turns.

Even 2 Kzinti BBs can't output 24 drones a turn at all, they can manage 20 for 4 turns and then run out.

It would need a DamCon of 12 and 15 racks per ship for that. I'm not aware of any such ship.
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ncrcalamine
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Battleship is probably superior to 2 ships except for
2 romulan vultures 4 plasma r's. Bb are ineffective at speed 24 or faster
2 hydran rangers with lots of stingers

Howerver,they are markedly inferior to 3 ships of most races of equal cost

2 fed war dd and a war cruiser or better ships 10+ photons coming in under evassive until launch

Kizinti 2 wd and a wc behind 12 or 18 drones(18 is a 2 turn swarm)

Lyran a conga line comming in of esg 120 points of esg

Any plasma race is bad for a bb

Orion any of the above

For most races 3 ships will chew up and destroy a bb

Hydran 6 gattlings +heavy weapons and stingers

Tholian a bb should never get a shot off ,2 web casters 14 phaser ones
Neotholian 170 points and 2 pc ships

The bb will trash or destroy 1 ship on turn 1 but 3 ships will really hurt it turn1
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ncrcalamine wrote:
A Battleship is probably superior to 2 ships except for
2 romulan vultures 4 plasma r's. Bb are ineffective at speed 24 or faster
2 hydran rangers with lots of stingers


BBs are not that ineffective at speed 24. They can still on the whole fire all forward weapons and have a bit of power plus batteries left for some accels. The Vultures are as bad as some BBs at turning, and several BBs put out enough drones to cause the Vultures issues. They can barely afford Evasive if they want to close at speed 24 so can be pretty well hammered at range by the disrupter BBs. Most (if not all) BBs have more phaser 1s than both vultures combined as well.

Map type/size will have a lot to do with how the vultures do.

Same with stingers, a large enough map makes it hard on the Hydrans.

Quote:

Howerver,they are markedly inferior to 3 ships of most races of equal cost

2 fed war dd and a war cruiser or better ships 10+ photons coming in under evassive until launch


Not really. 3 ships is as bad or worse as 2 ships generally.

Take the Feds - 2 DWs and a ?? (not sure what a Fed war cruiser is, I'll assume an NCA). The DWs holding overloads and being evasive are paying 9 power before even moving, 21 at speed 24. That leaves only 2+2 power once they have overloads armed. An NCA is paying 38 to go speed 24 evasive with overloads, that leaves 0+4! Any of the drone BBs will make life awkward for the evasive ships.

Plasma BBs are bad for the Feds, plasma will keep them away whilst the DWs gettered phasered to death, watching the BB battery away much of their phasers. If they don't overload and go for long range photons they may just get ran down.

PPDs and Hellbores are less affected by evasive and may hammer small ships even whilst they are evasive.

Even a range 5-8 overload shot from the that fed group only averges 80 damage, which just gets through the front shield of a BB.

Quote:

Kizinti 2 wd and a wc behind 12 or 18 drones(18 is a 2 turn swarm)


A lot of BBs can readily handle 12 drones a turn, the remiaing 7 or 8 disrupters and 10 or so phaser 1s isn't going to hack it against a BB.

Quote:

Lyran a conga line comming in of esg 120 points of esg


Assuming you get all 3 ships to range 1 intact you mean. You are forced to spread out which isn't good. Drones/plasma may have forced a ship off course or use up its weapons. The first threatening ship probably gets hammered prior to range 1. If the BB keeps the 3 ships arriving over a turn break he may hammer one and then another before either get to use ESG. Then he can also put different shields to each ship as it arrives spreading what ESG damage it does take across his large shields.

Quote:

Any plasma race is bad for a bb


Probably not if it is 3 smaller ships. 3 smaller plasma ships have, what, 3 S and 6 F plus about a dozen phaser 1s. That is not that scary for a BB, even less so once he has blasted one of the small ships leaving you with 4 Fs and 2 Ss.

Quote:

For most races 3 ships will chew up and destroy a bb


I really don't see it.

Quote:

Hydran 6 gattlings +heavy weapons and stingers


Again they have to get close without losing a ship first. Small ships go POP fast and small ships don't carry that many stingers, especially if you are talking even point fight. You are looking at maybe 6 stingers?. nasty if they are close, but delivering 6 up close is a big 'if'.

Quote:

Tholian a bb should never get a shot off ,2 web casters 14 phaser ones
Neotholian 170 points and 2 pc ships


14 phasers aren't going to hurt a BB unless you get close, the BB can muster as many phasers and heavy weapons. you'll need to get your web tactics perfect or he will simply go into the web and exchange your relativley weak firepower for his much heavier stuff.

Quote:

The bb will trash or destroy 1 ship on turn 1 but 3 ships will really hurt it turn1


Certainly the BB may hurt, trash or destroy a small ship on turn 1, but many 3 ships squadrons will struggle to hurt the BB that much on turn 1.
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semperatis
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm,with 390 pts to play with,I'd be tempted to take 7 or 8 Fed Pol cutters or 16 Armed Cutters against the BB,(that's 32 drones in a single turn). The good thing about the AC's is their power curve,they can move speed 32,arm all phasers,put energy into EM and HET and still have a 1/4 pt of power left over,plus the battery. Ok,so they're eggshells,but they'll tie up the BB's weapons trying to destroy either them or the drone wave,but it can't do both.
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