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Draft Tournament Auction-Based Squadron Selection Method
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terrain will change from tournament to tournament just like the base squadron. What I am using in the mock test will not necessarily be what is used in the Spring 2013 tournament.

Lee,

I don't understand what you are saying with regard to the victory conditions. A player cannot get a win under those victory conditions unless he or she forces a loss on his or her opponent. There is no win/draw possibility. Only win/loss, draw/draw and draw/loss.

If a player does not think he or she can get a win, the player might try to go for a draw/draw over a draw/loss in order to get better tie breaker points. Is that the concern you have? If so, I would note that if a player does so, he or she is doing so at the cost of allowing his or her opponent the opportunity to score one point versus zero. If we are late in tournament, the opponents records are likely evenly matched such that a player cannot afford the cost of giving a point to his or her opponent.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok on terrain, I assumed it was what you were now thinking of using as 'standard'.


Yes, win/draw? It is the draw/loss I was talking about.

It is worse for you to have a draw/loss than a draw/draw. Sure my opponent might get a point, but that is usually not going to be a concern except in very rare cases.

Of the 3 games that ended draw/draw so far I'm aware that 2 of them in part went that way because at least one player didn't want to take the risk of pushing the game just to give a loss for the other player, the risk being that in pushing for that he might actually lose such a close game by either by being the loss in the draw/loss or even just lose fully. (i.e. you risk much for no gain). There has not yet been a draw/loss in any of the online tourneys, which makes it an odd result to worry about keeping when its only effect has otherwise been negative/perverse.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming I don't change the tie breaker point calculation method, is this roughly what you have in mind:

- All resignations are resolved win/loss.

- In all other situations, the results are either draw/draw or win/loss

In a 10 turn game, a win/loss will mean more than a 30 point difference between players and at least a 150 point total from the winner. (The exact amount of points that are required might vary based on the size of the squadrons in a particular tournament).

In a less than 10 Turn game that doesn't end in a resignation, a win/loss will mean more than a 3 points per completed turn difference between players and at least a 15 points per completed turn total from the winner. (Again, the exact amounts of points that are reuqired might vary based on the size of the squadrons in a particular tournament).
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is just the draw/loss that bothers me and the way it interacts with your tie break system.

How win/loss or draws are determined I'm not bothered about. I have no particular interest in the 30/150 thresholds. But if draw/loss is kept then it should always be something that is always better to have than a draw/draw pts wise. Rather than something that may well penalise you comapred to just accepting a mutual draw.
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pinbot
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I can answer Monty's question. The next empire will be selected by whoever starts the bidding on the next squadron. Which will be the 'next player in bid order without a squadron'. I take that to be next player after whoever won the bid. There might be some slim room for confusion there as to whether 'next player' means 'next in order after the winner' or 'next in bid order because they are the top player without a squadron on the ordered list' but the latter interpretation would give me (being the top on the list) far too much chance to steer the empire population of the tournament.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the next person in bid order following the person who takes the Base Squadron will select an empire and bid a squadron.

This will be me if Sebastian380 takes the Base Squadron. It will be Pinbot, if I end up with the Base Squadron.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per 4.d:
A player that has already been awarded a squadron (including the Base Squadron) may bid.

I suppose it should read that a player that has already been awarded a squadron must bid or pass. Otherwise everybody else would have to wait 24 hours before the bidding continued.
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pinbot
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
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Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting territory we've reached with that Selt squad going through. I look forward to the after-action debriefing.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ncrcalamine wrote:
Question if i pass on 550 pt gorns can i get back in the bidding in the next round after they have reached a bottom.

I pass for now

Nicole



Not by my reading,

"Once a player has passed, that player may no longer bid for the empire being contested unless that empire comes up again in later bidding through Step c."

I.e. if you want Gorns you either bid now or hope they get selected again (which won't happen due to empire selection restrictions).
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
c. The next player in Bid Order who has not yet been awarded a squadron will be given the opportunity to select an eligible empire that has not yet been selected in the tournament.


Does this mean that should the selt squadron drop out due to the current Selt player bidding on something else that the next player to choose an empire can immediately choose them again. Or, are they considered to have been selected and therefore not eligible for selection until all other empires have been bid for.

i.e. does 'selection' mean they have been bid on at least once (no matter whether they then get dropped) or actually currently in the tourney with someone having them.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Mock Bidding Process was a good idea. I realize now that if I choose to stay with my Fed squad I'll be playing with a much lower pointed squad and without any bonus as per B2a in the Rule Book.

So, am I right to conclude that ...

*biddding based on the preference for an empire is a mistake;

*the best option is to NOT bid at all--at least in the first rounds--and the Judge, and the Asst. Judge will get the lowest-pointed squadrons because the other players will not bid either;

*if nobody bids eventually the squads that are equal to Base Squad + 150 (or close to that) will fall in my lap.

*if I wait until the very end the worst that can happen is that I get in a bidding war with the player with the very worst squadron;

*the result will be that there will be two players with low-pointed squads and everybody else with high-pointed squads.

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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If, however, the bidding system works the point spreads would never be significant.
In case they are we should re-instate rule B2a. I think that would prevent any kind of bidding manipulation.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think part of what Jim is trying to get away from is having specific handicaps. If players are bidding 'rationally' then the players themselves have effectivey decided that the squadrons are balanced, and a rule that gives bonus points to someone is therefore not needed. What's more, in theory it doesn't matter what the map or scenarios is, everyone was able to account for that in the bidding. A formal handicap will, however, only really be applicable to one setup/scenario.

If you do introduce bonus victory points based on the ships points values, then you are also saying that you think the points are right and therefore 380 pts of Feds are a disadvantage to 390 points of Lyrans, and needs 10 bonus points to balance it out. If the points were that accurate to start with then we wouldn't need a bidding system or handicap system.

Of course if players are bidding for reasons other than pure balance (e.g. I really want to play empire X , or really hate empie Y so I'm never bidding for it) then it may well fall apart.
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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Quote:
c. The next player in Bid Order who has not yet been awarded a squadron will be given the opportunity to select an eligible empire that has not yet been selected in the tournament.


Does this mean that should the selt squadron drop out due to the current Selt player bidding on something else that the next player to choose an empire can immediately choose them again. Or, are they considered to have been selected and therefore not eligible for selection until all other empires have been bid for.

i.e. does 'selection' mean they have been bid on at least once (no matter whether they then get dropped) or actually currently in the tourney with someone having them.


Yes, to the first question. I did not prohibit this from happening.

A selected empire is one that is currently awarded to a player.

I'll look over the rules and consider clarifying both of these points inthe final verison of the tournament rules.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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JimDauphinais
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some thoughts on the other comments above:

- Under the rules I am intentionally removing (B2a). Players need to factor this into their bidding.

- I intentionally selected the Seltorians immediately following the Feds as a stress test. Except against the Tholians, it is weakest empire from a point value perspective and it is also generally an unpopular choice as an empire. It is not a slam dunk that the squadron I was awarded will be able to defeat the Base Squadron especially if the holder of the Base Squadron can keep the Seltorians beyond 5 hexes and remembers to use Evasive Maneuvers within 5 hexes to block Seltorian boarding parties. This said, I will also say I would have bid the Seltorians all the way down to a BC plus 2 CLs or maybe a NCA plus 2 CAs. I think Lee's choice to pass on them likely reflects that either: (i) he believes the latter two Seltorian squadrons would be hard pressed to beat the Base Squadron or (ii) he doesn't believe anyone would underbid these two Seltorian squadrons and he didn't want to get stuck with them.

- I would view the outcome of what happened with the Seltorians to be an indication that the consensus of the players (including myself) is that the Seltorians are either: (i) very weak or (ii) weak and not fun to play. I do not think it is a problematic outcome. Furthermore, I wouldn't rule out me bidding for another empire with a much lower point total squadron bid.

- Yes, if you hold the Base Squadron you want to be bidding until your bid would have to be for a squadron you don't believe can beat the Base Squadron. If you don't do so, you are hurting your chances in the tournament. This said, if that player really wants to play the Base Empire, I can understand the holder of the Base Squadron passing especially when the current standing squadron bid for an empire is only a bit better (in expected performance not points) than the Base Squadron.

- The Base Squadron will not necessarily be the weakest squadron. Irrational bidding may cause a popular empire to end up with a weaker squadron than the Base Squadron. Also, aggresive bidding by the current holder of the Base Squadron should help as well. This said, the Base Squadron is sort of a "hot potato" that should ultimately drive folks to bid downward since they might end up getting stuck with it. However, I do see that if the Base Squadron is a popular empire, it will be less of a "hot potato" to many players than if the Base Squadron is from an unpopular empire.
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