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Draft Tournament Auction-Based Squadron Selection Method
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sebastian380 wrote:
The Mock Bidding Process was a good idea. I realize now that if I choose to stay with my Fed squad I'll be playing with a much lower pointed squad and without any bonus as per B2a in the Rule Book.

Yeah, that's why I was so surprised when the Selts went through. Once a high point squad is in, there is no way to force them out. I'm sure everyone else felt they didn't have to bid because you were forced to.

But then I realized that you could be playing a riskier game, letting the Selts go through and trusting that you'd be able to bid on a better squad later.

Quote:
*biddding based on the preference for an empire is a mistake;

Preference remains important--but there's more to it, managing the threats posed by your opponents is just as important.

Quote:
*the best option is to NOT bid at all--at least in the first rounds--and the Judge, and the Asst. Judge will get the lowest-pointed squadrons because the other players will not bid either;

They can always bid in later. So basically empire preference is still what usually will drive the choice whether to bid. However, blocking bids may also be required.

Quote:
*if nobody bids eventually the squads that are equal to Base Squad + 150 (or close to that) will fall in my lap.

No, because people can re-enter the bidding.

Quote:
*if I wait until the very end the worst that can happen is that I get in a bidding war with the player with the very worst squadron;

I have ideas about what will happen, but this is entering the realm where I think we are mocking it to find out.

Quote:
*the result will be that there will be two players with low-pointed squads and everybody else with high-pointed squads.

I think the safety measure that blocks this is that whoever owns the base squad should never pass against a squad that he doesn't have a chance against. The Selts being in, now there will be at least one high point squad. And the base squad is locked in, so yes there should be at least 2 down at that level. The 'interesting territory' I saw was, how many other high value squadrons will sneak through (or do other people see something I'm missing that makes the high value Selts not crazy) One thing is for sure, the presence of the Selts and the fact that they got through both made me a lot less sure of my bidding goals and plans.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1832

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify my thoughts regarding the Selts.

I quite like the selts, they are pretty weak on the standard tourmey setup But because they are far from the usual close and crunch style of play I find them interesting. They were a possible choice I was mulling over for the next tourney before the bidding thing came up.

I think the base squadron will get creamed by the Selt squadron that is currently in. I think 3 cruisers (NCA/CA) will also beat the base squadron handily.

The reason I ended up passing was that I was not sure what was going to happen afterwards. I was not only considering the base squadron, but also the fact that I have no great confidence that there would not be at least 1 high point value squadron get in. I didn't want to spend 24 hours pondering the issue so just said pass.
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I also wanted Selts going in. But they came up so early and so far under the cap that I just didn't feel they were worth sacrificing my option to pick an empire.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other downer is going to be getting lumbered with the base squadron early means that you lose a chance to ever select an empire for bidding. The base squadron is now up for reassignment potentially, but it cannot drop out of the selection.

That means that someone else will get the base squadron, possibly against their will. Once that happens, that person will always have a squadron and therefore not be able to select an empire. The best they can do is bid for an empire that someone else has selected to move the base squadron, but that still leaves them with a squadron.

If you really want to play an empire then not only may you lose the bid, you cannot even be sure that you can at least pick that empire to have that chance of getting it.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. So, my strategy for the next time around will be to wait. The Judge or the Asst. Judge (that's me by the way) will get saddled with (lumbered with Smile ) the low value squadrons.
In the current situation will my last bid for the Gorns make it through? Not likely. But, I'll keep trying to get out of the hole I'm in.
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That threat that you might get the base squadron against your will is the driving force that should keep the base squad as the approximate strength of all squads. You should never allow a squad in the game that you wouldn't be willing to face with the base squad.

If everyone understands that, then I don't think there's a danger of high point squads.

It's true that that he was coerced into bidding down the Seltorians once everyone else passed. That meant he was never going to get a chance to pick an empire--but that was something he did to himself by taking the base squad instead of leaving it to the judge who chose it. (not saying that was a mistake--if he wanted Feds that was the thing to do)

So...I'm not at all sure that there's actually any problem where people don't get their chance to name an empire, or that they get stuck with crap--unless they make a mistake.

But I do wonder how long it might take when people have to bid down empires, get stuck with something they don't want, and then discard the squad to re-enter on a later bid. You can't lose progress, but if a bidding cycle ends up replacing a previously selected squad you don't make any progress either, so it's possible the bidding could go on for a long time.

And as far as I can tell, if a high point squad sneaks through, everyone faces more of a conundrum in bidding, and some mismatches are ensured in the end.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 753
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is an incentive for folks to bid in a manner that keeps the auction process shorter than it might be.

Specifically, when you get the choice to pick an empire, immediately bid the highest value squadron that you feel the player holding the Base Squadron will allow to stand. If you do this, it leaves no room for the bidders that follow you to underbid you unless they are willing to take a squadron that you believe is preceived by the holder of the Base Squadron as being the weaker than the Base Squadron.

BTW, all of this, including some of the other thoughts that have been posted, can be distilled into a paragraph called "bidding notes" that can then added to the tournament rules to help newcomers to the auction.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
The reason I ended up passing was that I was not sure what was going to happen afterwards. I was not only considering the base squadron, but also the fact that I have no great confidence that there would not be at least 1 high point value squadron get in. I didn't want to spend 24 hours pondering the issue so just said pass.


Even if you had won the Seltorians, you would have still been able to bid against others later. However, you would be giving up your ability to name an empire for bidding.

As long as you were willing to give up the possible right to name an empire for bidding, the only real decision before you was bidding a lower point value Seltorian squadron that you thought could beat the Base Squadron.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1832

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JimDauphinais wrote:

Even if you had won the Seltorians, you would have still been able to bid against others later. However, you would be giving up your ability to name an empire for bidding.

As long as you were willing to give up the possible right to name an empire for bidding, the only real decision before you was bidding a lower point value Seltorian squadron that you thought could beat the Base Squadron.


If I bid for seltorians it was because I would have wanted them, I wouldn't have particularly wanted to bid against others later and find myself with a squadron I didn't really want. I would have been ok giving up a chance of choosing an empire if I'd got Selts. What I wouldn't wanted to have done was bid down selts and then found that later another high point squadron was going through for an empire I didn't want, and therefore wouldn't have bid for (in case I ended up losing selts and getting something I didn't want). I'd be relying on others to bid down such a squadron, and I have no idea what other peoples motives are in bidding.

I'm certainly not going to be a 'ratonal' bidder. Whilst there are a number of empires I'm happy to play, there are a couple of empires I really just have zero interest in playing in a tourney. Not to say I wouldn't play them in one off games (or even a campaign), but not a tourney. That's not to say they are bad empires either (in fact they are actually excellent empires in a tourney when played right) I just find them boring to be playing with in tourney style games, 4 times in a row.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an idea. It would be nice to have a little table of established squadrons and their owners so I wouldn't have to keep scrolling back through the board. Hmmm. Maybe a job for an Assistant Judge.
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if we were really playing this tournament I'd let the Selts go since presumably they don't really belong in there. (although to be honest, it's not like I'd feel unbeatable knowing how much experience you lot have)

I took them because that is how I'd play the bidding rules to my best advantage--so it seemed the proper 'mock bidding' behavior.

But...did we want them to go out even for the mock? The thing is, I'm not sure my inexperienced notions of intra-empire balance are worth much, so I was basically in here to see what you guys would let me get away with.
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you didn't take them then I would have. I'm actually surprised Jim kept bidding Gorns given he had a good Selt squadron (that he himself choose as an empire).

I'd quite like to try Selts, and wouldn't have a another chance if I let them go. The same would apply with any other empire, if you want to play them you will only get this one chance is all likely hood.

It is supposed to be a bidding system for a tourney, part of testig that is whether it realy ends up balanced or not. If there is a weakness in the system than it needs to be identified. Jim thinks it can handle a few players maybe not bidding for pure balance so long as someone is, where as I am not so sure that wil work.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I threw the Selts in at a bit of a high opening bid to see what would happen. I am not sure what happened with the Selts would happen again since folks saw what happened and it only takes one player besides myself to stop it from happening again. This said, we will need to add some bidding advice to the tournament rules to provide some awareness for newcomers.

Regardless, if I choose to do so as a player, I can simply prevent this from being a problem by always bidding a squadron that I think is no more than slightly better than the Base Squadron unless I think the current standing bid is already at that level. To date in the mock test, I have not been bidding this way. That may soon change. So, folks need to start thinking carefully about their opening bids if they really want the empire they are bidding on!
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 59
Location: Portland, OR

PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All Tholian and Seltorian ships must use their Milky Way (not M81) Galaxy weapons.


I can't figure out what the Seltorian part refers to. Is that maybe an SFB thing? Or am I blind?
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about it for the Selts. It matters for the Tholians.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

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