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Draft Tournament Auction-Based Squadron Selection Method
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Monty
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Orions is it necessary to include the option mount loadouts? Can I bid different loadouts for the same ships?
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to declare your option mounts, but I don't see anything stopping you bidding the same ships with a cheaper loadout.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee is correct.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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Monty
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,

Did it go the way you expected it?
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mock test has finished.

I feel it was a success.

The only significant abberation was the Seltorians. However, I could have prevented that abberation from occuring by making my opening bid for them the lowest point value Seltorian squadron that I feel is only slightly better than the Base Squadron that was offered.

While I would not necessarily try to use this squadron selection method in a tournament with something like 64 players, I think it is workable up to at least 16 players.

Below is the bidding advice section I propose to add to the tournament rules:

Bidding Advice:

Before bidding it is recommended that players consdier what their objective is in the tournament and what price they are willing to pay to achieve that objective.

Example 1: If you are dead set against playing a particular empire, you can choose to pass on that empire when it comes up for bidding. However, it is important to balance that desire against your tolerance of letting someone walk off with a squadron that could potentially crush your squadron of an empire that you want to play. You may want to at least try to bid down the other empire a little bit such that your squadron from an empire you want to play will at least be in the ballpark of being competitive with the squadron of the empire you do not want to play.

Example 2: If you have your heart set on playing only one empire, you can choose to bid as low as the squadron bid rules allow when that empire comes up for bidding. However, it is important to balance that desire against your tolerance for ending up with a squadron from the empire you want to play that is not competitive with the other squadrons in the tournament. As with the previous example, you may want to bid down the other empires at least a little bit to help ensure your desired squadron is at least in the ballpark of being competitive. Similarly, you may want to set a limit on how low you are willing to go in bidding for your desired empire to avoid getting caught up with the moment and bidding too low.

Example 3: If good play balance is your primary desire and you have strong feelings with regard to how the empires perform against one another in the situation presented in the tournament, you can bid on every empire and always bid squadrons that you feel are only slightly better in performance than than the Base Squadron. However, it is important to balance this desire against your tolerance for playing particular empires. You may not want to bid as aggresively on empires for which you have a strong aversion to playing.


It is also strongly suggested that players consider the exact makeup of the ships that are being bid -- not just the point values alone. Within each empire there are ships that are generally thought to be overpointed (e.g., Federation CL) or underpointed (e.g., Orion LR) depending on the situation being presented in the tournament. If you are not sure what you are exactly bidding against or exactly what you would be bidding, either pull out your ship cards or lookup the ships in the FC Online client.


It is also important not to assume the other players to bid empires down. It only takes one player to bid an empire down to a reasonable level. However, if everybody believes another player will do it, it won't happen.


Also, to help keeps moving along with the bidding, it is helpful to think about what you might be willing to bid for a particular empire before your turn to bid comes up.


Finally, if you are new to Federation Commander and are uncertain about how empires stackup against one another, don't get to concerned with all of the above. Instead, to keep things simple, simply limit your downward bidding of squadrons for empires to point totals no lower than a bit (e.g., 5% to 20%) higher than that of the Base Squadron. This should roughly put you in the right ballpark.




Comments?
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It took just short of a week for 6 players.

If we assume that we are average when it comes to time spent bidding then a 12 player tourney would take just short of 4 weeks, and a 16 player one 7 weeks. That's a dubious assumption, we were all fairly keen to see how it went, and seemed quite quick in our times. I expect running a fuller tourney would see some players who, for a variety of reasons, are not constantly checking to see if they are up and getting bids in, even 1 player each round waiting 24 hours would add over a week with even just 12 players. It's easy to keep keen and interested over a 1 week test, not so sure about a 4-8 week real version.

The time taken will ramp up fast as more players are involved, which may be a dampener on people wanting to play.

As to the squadron s picked, the Seltorian looks to be very potent, and I'd be surprised if that didn't win that tourney if it actually took place. The Feds take the wooden Spoon I reckon. I'm not sure it really produced a good balance.

I think more thought might want to go into the base squadron. Choosing older ships probably means that they are quite weak for the points, given that it is the one squadron that someone will be lumbered with then it probably ought be a good squadron for the points.
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ncrcalamine
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 228

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please clarify

In the sample test bidding, i bid orions at 336 points and took them.
Then a kizinti fleet was posted.
Lets say i had bid on the kizintis and won.
What happens to the orions and the player who still has no fleet.

Nicole
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The same as just happened to the Gorn player up to the last round, he bid the kzinti and won. The player with no fleet got the chance to take that Gorn squadron or choose another empire.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Orion squadron would have been offered as is to the player without s squadron.

If not taken, the Orion squadron is discarded.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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Monty
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's an interesting bidding system and it becomes a game of its own.

My concern would be time and new players. If it takes as long to setup as it does to play then that may turn off some players that want to dive in. If a veteran player ends up with the Gorns or Selts from this result it probably won't go too well for the rest.
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With regard to unusual Base Squadrons, I could name the Base Squadron at the time the tournament is announced. This would allow folks to think about that squadron before we start bidding. In other words, it would give more time for folks to think about how strong that squadron really is.

Note that I want to use the Base Squadron to specifically introduce unusual squadrons that would not normally be purchased. However, it would make sense to give folks more time to think about the Base Squadron, like the impact of Terrain, before we start bidding.

I really think the time issue is overblown. The bidding itself seems to draw folks in and it only takes one player to keep it short by quickly bidding down. I could also use a three time out passes and you are withdrawn rule if we were worried about no shows.

I provided advice for new players in the proposed bidding advice. However, I would propose to reorder it in the advice to come first.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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Sebastian380
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 07 Mar 2013
Posts: 79
Location: Toronto, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed it. I agree with Monty--it does become a game in itself. I see myself as what was termed an 'irrational' bidder and I paid the price for that but I did have opportunities to get out of the hole I was in: I chose not to take those opportunities but it is good that the system allows for that type of bidding.
I hate to bring it up again but I believe that time will be an issue. I watched the board constantly and I reacted as quickly as possible. I don't think I could do that the next time around.
All in all I liked it and I look forward to the tournament.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No matter who bids low, those who come after that bid will still have to actually say whether they are bidding or not. That takes time. If there are 10 players still to bid then you still have to wait for them to say what they are doing.
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JimDauphinais
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Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I agree you would have to get through everyone and it could potentially slow things down.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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JimDauphinais
Commander


Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Posts: 766
Location: Chesterfield, MO

PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is the method fatally flawed due to the time issue or should we give it a go?

If the time issue is fatally flawed and beyond repair, we are likely rebooting ourselves to no terrain, fixed point squadrons, a 32 hex starting distance and empire multipliers. The tournament scenario would stay static and not change from tournament to tournament.

Personally, I would like to give the new method a go. We only run through it once at the beginning of the tournament and I am prepared for it to take few weeks to complete with a fairly large turnout. However, I could be talked out of it if there is a strong belief the method is fatally flawed due to the time issue.
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Jim Dauphinais, Chesterfield, MO

St. Louis Area Fed Comm Group: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/STL_Federation_Commander/
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