Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

First Missions with other Races...

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: First Missions with other Races... Reply with quote

I was wondering how easy it would be to adapt other races to the First Missions pack for introducing people into the game. A guy I know wants to play the Kzinti and I thought a Kzinti - Lyran duel would be more fun for him than the basic Federation - Klingon match up, or possibly in combination with it (F+Z vs. K+L) for a game to introduce multiple players.

I'm thinking that you'd have to know the cost of stripping various weapons out of certain vessels to fit with the expurgated rules. For instance, removing Drones from the Kzinti and the ESG from the Lyran, but I'm sure, being a new player to the game, that there are other considerations.

Advice?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 523

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, a Klingon trainer would do fairly well for Kzinti. You'd need to focus on drones more than disruptors though.

I'd recommend learning drones first and disruptors second. It'll give the drone is primary weapon flavor of the Kzinti.

I wouldn't recommend the Lyrans as a first-time match up though. The ESG is the kryptonite of drones and you want to give him a chance to learn to use drones before facing that.

Feds would be a good first match. It let's the Kzinti learn to be patient and use long-range fire vice charging in up close.

My 2 cents.
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
Actually, a Klingon trainer would do fairly well for Kzinti. You'd need to focus on drones more than disruptors though.

I'd recommend learning drones first and disruptors second. It'll give the drone is primary weapon flavor of the Kzinti.

I wouldn't recommend the Lyrans as a first-time match up though. The ESG is the kryptonite of drones and you want to give him a chance to learn to use drones before facing that.

Feds would be a good first match. It let's the Kzinti learn to be patient and use long-range fire vice charging in up close.

My 2 cents.


Disruptors are covered in the First Missions PDF, and that's what I'm trying to emulate as closely as possible. I don't mind adding an extra weapon or two, so Drones might be an option, but I want to present the relatively same set of rules given for the demo for use with potential new players, just with different ships, hence the curiosity about the relative PV of certain systems.

I just got around to reading about ESG's and yeah, that would definitely discourage the Kzinti player. Without any other tactics (Tractor Beams, Marines, etc.) to fall back on, it would be very frustrating indeed. That's why I was thinking of cutting out the ESG on the Lyran ship in the same way they eliminate Drones in the FM PDF. But again, that kind of skews the costs.

Ideally, I'd like to put together a set of evenly matched ships from all the powers for training purposes that use only the First Missions rules, but I might be able to create some small quick reference cards to cover single weapon systems that are specific for each race. That way each player need only learn the basic rules and the one weapon they have different from everyone else (mind you plasma would have to be seriously distilled down to a single type). Anyone done this already?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3471
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I remember right, the Fed CA and Klingon D7 don't have modified Point Values for First Missions. So, using the Lyran CA straight up without its ESGs, shouldn't be any more problematic than using the Fed CA or D7 without their drones.

Using the Kzinti without its drones, however, is kinda harsh for that ship. On the other hand, you can use the WYN CA (options are Ph-1s) or the Tholian CA without web.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
If I remember right, the Fed CA and Klingon D7 don't have modified Point Values for First Missions. So, using the Lyran CA straight up without its ESGs, shouldn't be any more problematic than using the Fed CA or D7 without their drones.

Using the Kzinti without its drones, however, is kinda harsh for that ship. On the other hand, you can use the WYN CA (options are Ph-1s) or the Tholian CA without web.


Romulans would suffer the same, I'd imagine, if you took away their bag of tricks as well. I suppose I could just give them Plasma Cannonades only, eliminating the seeking aspect of plasma. Might give them a slightly tougher ship as well to make up for the lack of cloaking.

Not quite sure how to shore up the Kzintis outside of giving them a much larger ship, maybe a Battlecruiser or even a Dreadnought. Same with Hydrans and their fighters. Maybe these races could also use multiple smaller ships on a single card, like the F5 Frigate Squadron from the Communiques?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 523

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Romulans don't use plasma carronades.

You could probably allow Plasma Bolts only.

Personally, I think you're putting too much effort into this. When I teach new folks, we go over the races to see which one appeals to them than we do the following:

Turn 1: Movement w/ turns for 4 imp; add sideslips for last 4 imp
Turn 2: Add Accel/Decel, Phasers, and shield reinforcement
Turn 3: Add Heavy DF weapons (including Plasma Bolts)
Turn 4: Launch Drones & Plasma Torps
Turn 5: Launch suicide shuttles, perform H&R, run into drones/plasma to practice defensive fire
Turn 6: Add fighters, HETs and EM
Turn 7-10: somewhat normal play
Turn 10: Game called; have a good night; study rulebook before next session.

Next session: Full up ruleset and I'll take a smaller ship for a few games.
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 523

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 turns is usually all I can get in on teaching nights because we discuss every movement and action before & after it occurs, do some Q&A between turns, and overall discuss how to think ahead, react to enemy, pros/cons of each action, etc.
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
Romulans don't use plasma carronades.

You could probably allow Plasma Bolts only.


Oops. That's what I meant. Learning a lot of new of new terms here, so mea culpa.

Quote:
Personally, I think you're putting too much effort into this. When I teach new folks, we go over the races to see which one appeals to them than we do the following:

Turn 1: Movement w/ turns for 4 imp; add sideslips for last 4 imp
Turn 2: Add Accel/Decel, Phasers, and shield reinforcement
Turn 3: Add Heavy DF weapons (including Plasma Bolts)
Turn 4: Launch Drones & Plasma Torps
Turn 5: Launch suicide shuttles, perform H&R, run into drones/plasma to practice defensive fire
Turn 6: Add fighters, HETs and EM
Turn 7-10: somewhat normal play
Turn 10: Game called; have a good night; study rulebook before next session.

Next session: Full up ruleset and I'll take a smaller ship for a few games.


Well, TBH, I only started considering FC after I'd downloaded FM, as I didn't realize how much simpler than SFB it really was. Otherwise I might have jumped into the game much earlier. It is such an excellent intro that I want to expand it a bit to give potential players some more options, especially if they are interested in seeing what it offers that makes it worth learning. So instead of just a mess of CAs going after a mess of D7s, I thought I'd put together a basic set using just the rules in FM that allows every race to show off what makes them different from the others in some manner without overloading the memory banks of the individual players.

Honestly, I'm thinking quick reference cards for each race are in order to do what I want to do. So only the Kzinti get to use Drones and get a Drone reference card with a point by point list with reference numbers for using Drones. Romulans get the Plasma Bolt and a point by point on using that. Feds get a Photon card, Klingons get a Disruptor card, etc.

I'm going to introduce FC into one of the local Student Game Developer Association game nights in the next few weeks and we'll see how the basic FC:FM session goes before I do anything else, however. If it becomes a thing, maybe I'll expand it as mentioned, or maybe I'll use your method to teach the full game. It all depends on the attention span of the students (which varies considerably), but most of the ones in the SGDA seem quite happy to learn more involved games...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3471
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen is correct: You are pushing this way farther than you really need to.

First, the list of ships you can easily use with this is already immense, once you drop into the Ship Cards section of Commanders' Circle. You can use virtually all of the Federation, Klingon, Lyran, WYN "standard" ships (with options=Ph-1), and basic (non Neo-) Tholians.

Second, instead of winging it with the other rules, just use the actual rules themselves. If you want to use more ships, then it is probably time to break down and at least by a copy of the Klingon Border Rulebook. It contains all of the rules necessary to play the Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Kzinti, Orions, and Gorns. Plus the non-web caster Tholians and the non-PPD ISC. (And even the "surface" Frax!) Every non-bonus ship and the monster referenced in that rule book are available on Commander's Circle.

Alternatively, you can just spend $4 more (for $15 total) and get the Reference Rulebook. This gives you all of the rules, so you can play virtually any ship available on the Commander's Circle.

So, again, once you pass the scope of First Missions, it really is time to fork over the $11 or $15 and get the actual rules.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
DNordeen is correct: You are pushing this way farther than you really need to.

First, the list of ships you can easily use with this is already immense, once you drop into the Ship Cards section of Commanders' Circle. You can use virtually all of the Federation, Klingon, Lyran, WYN "standard" ships (with options=Ph-1), and basic (non Neo-) Tholians.

Second, instead of winging it with the other rules, just use the actual rules themselves. If you want to use more ships, then it is probably time to break down and at least by a copy of the Klingon Border Rulebook. It contains all of the rules necessary to play the Feds, Klingons, Romulans, Kzinti, Orions, and Gorns. Plus the non-web caster Tholians and the non-PPD ISC. (And even the "surface" Frax!) Every non-bonus ship and the monster referenced in that rule book are available on Commander's Circle.

Alternatively, you can just spend $4 more (for $15 total) and get the Reference Rulebook. This gives you all of the rules, so you can play virtually any ship available on the Commander's Circle.

So, again, once you pass the scope of First Missions, it really is time to fork over the $11 or $15 and get the actual rules.


You misunderstand, this is not a way for me to milk the FM PDF. I purchased Academy, Graduation, and Distant Kingdoms already (got a honey of a deal and got the lot for less than KB alone) and picked up Klingon Attack to fill out the Kzintis, which someone I know is already interested in (and his interest in that race in particular is the main thrust behind this initiative).

I'm just trying to pick out some 'starter' stuff from what I already have that can be used with just the FM PDF rules for a first 'newbie' game. The advantage of having them download that before the game makes teaching a bit easier. If there are some very basic, phaser/photon/disruptor only ships for the other racers in the CC, I'll look for those, however. There is a lot of stuff in that section of the website, and I've only scratched the surface, so it's not really surprising that I haven't found those bits yet.

By the way, MJ, I'm a grad student at UTD. Any chance of you showing me the ropes sometime? Maybe we can set up a game at Madness Comics in Plano?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 523

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I highly recommend the reference rulebook on e23. I have it on my laptop and phone. Much easier to carry my phone around
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
I highly recommend the reference rulebook on e23. I have it on my laptop and phone. Much easier to carry my phone around


I was thinking about that, actually, just to have all the rules in one place, and also because it is easily updated, but ease of transport is really not a problem for FC, in my case.

Right now, I can carry the entire game inside a large zipped trapper-keeper type binder that holds all my rulebooks, a small binder with the data cards, the maps and Battleships in sheet protectors, all the dry erase pens and dice in a pen pocket and, hopefully soon, a small compartment-ed box with counters. So it's no more difficult to transport than the typical binder full of stuff I carry everyday.

It's on my 'to buy' list, however, but only after I fill out my fleets with some boosters.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1379

PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pirate ships would work fine with First Missions. Just use disruptors, phasers, or photons in the option mounts and ignore the engine doubling and stealth rules.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:
Pirate ships would work fine with First Missions. Just use disruptors, phasers, or photons in the option mounts and ignore the engine doubling and stealth rules.


Pirate raids would make for good intro-scenarios, especially ones that focus on objectives outside of 'hull the other ship.' And Orions can work against pretty much any race. Add in a convoy along with the matched ships and center the game around protecting or disabling it and you should be on to a good variation there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group