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Some tactical advice for Klingons vs Selts
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DNordeen
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Some tactical advice for Klingons vs Selts Reply with quote

Just thought I'd share some advice I gave out the other day for Klingon Player taking on the Selts.

Try to stay at range 15 when in his FA arc. You're disruptors & Phasers don't improve until range 8, so there's no point getting any closer than 15 and risking a shield cracker and/or overload shot.

He hits on 1-3 while you hit on 1-4, but he does 1 more point of damage and fires twice. Try not to get into a sniping duel, he's got more advantages. You want to try and get in his rear and stay on it. He maneuvers worse than you so he'll have a hard time out turning you.

Don't split your drone targeting. Fling it all at one ship. I'd either choose the biggest or the smallest. If you choose the biggest, his whole fleet will probably stay with the big one and your drones will effectively influence the entire fleet. If you choose the smallest, he may just have it break off away from the rest of the fleet. This will give you the chance to destroy the small ship while it's away from the fleet (i.e., defeat in detail).

Either way, I'd recommend trying to destroy his smaller ships first one at a time. They have smaller shields and will be easier to pop. Additionally, they are his most maneuverable ships.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be fair to the Selties...

If the Klingon wants to saber dance let him. You hit harder and twice per turn. You'll get the better of that match most days. His maneuverability won't matter as much at long range as it does in a knife fight.

If you get into a close range fight, give him overloaded PCs and Shield Crackers. It's a more accurate Fed photon blast every turn for less power. Granted, it's spread over 2 volleys (SCs are their own volley), but you can't have everything.

Don't forget you're marines. You've got a lot of them. Either H&R him to death, or go for the ultimate smack down by capturing his ship.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
He hits on 1-3 while you hit on 1-4, but he does 1 more point of damage and fires twice.


Not sure what you were trying to say, but the PC doesn't do 1 more damage and fire twice a turn at range 15. It does the same damage as a disrupter if it hits, and fires twice a turn. It does 1 more damage over a turn on average if he fires twice.

Klingons fiighting Selts at long range is as you say a really bad idea on the whole. The Klingons often have a slightly heavier volley than one Selt volley, but they can't really match the overall damage dealt out by the bugs. Though the PC is affected more by shifts, be it EM or scouts, asteroids etc.

The selts though struggle to go fast and fire everything, plus they turn like bathtubs, and they have FA focused 'heavy' weapons. If they go fast take advantage and out manouver them, they will probably not be able to keep the PCs in arc for 2 shots, nor have the power to use them twice plus phasers.

For the Selts, I've found in the past that staying slow can be a good tactic at times, it keeps your turn mode down, and allows you to have plenty of power for all weapons, including overloads if the Klink closes. If he stays away you will almost certainly win a battle of attrition. The down side is drones, if he is drone heavy you may have problems. Fighting slow Selts can be tricky for the Klinks, especially if they are in the older ships without the great disrupter arcs.

Definately always keep power for hit and run, and look to take out a shield for such an action. There's nothing more satisfying than declaring H&R against the Right Warp, not a box, but the whole engine! Just be aware that the Klinks are often quite good at H&R as well, some of their ships have large number of transporters, though they lack the numbers of marines.


Last edited by storeylf on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the selts
Going slow in reverse works well at close range to keep enemies in arc ( if you can stand the incessent beeping Wink )

Nicole
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storyelf you're right.

At Range 15, stats are as follows:

Disruptor: Hit 1-4; Dam: 3
PC: Hit 1-3; Dam 3

For some reason, I "saw" a 4 for the PC. I'm getting old.

So I should have said, he's slightly less accurate, but each shot does the same damage and he shoots twice.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicole, Lee,
Any helpful suggestions for Klingons facing Lyrans or Frax? Smile
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pray?

Seriously though, the Frax are the Klingon's simulator race so they were designed to really push a Klingon Capt. I don't have any of their ship cards, so the best I can tell you is to stay out of their broadside.

For Lyrans, Klingon drones aren't going to be much use except to force him to use energy. The other side is that his ESG won't hit you unless you basically overrun him so both your tertiary weapons don't have a lot of play.

I'd suggest lobbing drones at him while you Saber Dance. Lyrans love to use that ESG and he'll use power knocking off the drones that your throwing to use up his power. Lack of power will cut down on his phaser/disruptor fire, accel/decel, and reinforcement. Meantime, you can use your power to go faster, get on his rear, and avoid his disruptor fire.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For Klingons generally.

If you have the better Klingon ships i.e. D5 hulls, C7s etc then you will normally have the advantage of having a lot of shields that you can face the enemy with whilst still shooting effectively. Make use of them.

Selts and Lyran are usually fighting out of the front 3 shields, as I noted above the earlier klingon ships with the FA Disrupters are the same so you have no clear edge. The D5 hulls though can not only clearly shoot without pointing at the enemy (useful when trying to keep your range), they can also play a longer game of sandpapering each other to death, with their bonus of having 2 extra shields (or about 40+) extra damage they can take whilst still having firepower to fire back out those shields.

So if you face a selt with those later Klingon hulls, and he goes slow, then whilst you will take more damage per turn you will be able to endure more turns of taking that than he will, as you switch between 5 shields. Try and take his front shield first, so that it is harder for him to manouver against you and harder for him to switch between shields 2 and 6 without exposing his knackered front.

Also against Selts, remember the delay between his PC volleys, you can probably have the main exchange where you get hit on a shield you'd rather not, but that second volley should be against your rear, as you have no reason to be showing anything else if you have already fired. Again it is all about spreading the damage around all 6 shields which is so much easier for klingons. If you both take 100 damage over a long game you may still have 6 intact shields, it is unlikely a Lyran or Selt will.

If you are planning a long range game right from the start in such ships against someone who has to face you, then try and get a shield 1 to shield 1 exchange to start with. You number 1 is not that important, if playing a long game it is likely that you will not use your number 1 that much afterwards, but the enemy will.


Drones are awkward to use. If you find your self trying to stay at range, and being chased at speed 24 then getting drone hits can be difficult. A speed 24 ship will go around them. However, you may be able to force the enemy to go around them whilst taking him away from you, helping keep the distance. Launching drones spread out is good idea here, as it forces him to keep dealing with some of them, rather than just a single big stack to slip past.

On the other hand if the enemy is going speed 16 then he cannot slip past them (unless he will get a turn break in time to speed up). Launch a stack and the best he can do is run from them for the turn, which takes an FA based enemy out the fight effectively. Otherwise he has to accept the impact and deal with the stack.

Klingons may not have enough drones to get through Lyran ESGs in small games, but if you are in a multi ship fight then you might be able to rake up enough drones. The thing to remember then is that a full ESG can deal with 5 drones, but it rapidly falters with more than that. Whilst 5 drones will all be taken out by an ESG, 6 drones will only see 2 killed, and he has to deal with the other 4. A lone ESG cannot kill any of a 7 drone stack, they will all be damaged, but if he can't rake up 7 phasers he can't finish them off. I say this as sometimes people forget the ESG does not just kill 5 and the rest get through.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good post storey.

However, the Klink shouldn't forget about the shield transfer rule. That will allow the Selt to move most of the sandpaper damage to rear shields. It won't negate the advantages you talked about, it'll just help the Selt face them.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of cousre, but that cuts both ways, as the klink you should be in a better position because much of your damage is already being spread around. A cruiser is doing about 12-14 damage a turn from disrupters and phasers, that is more than can be shifted, and if you hit the enemy number 1 it is being shifted to the other 2 front shields as well whch is still good, so is only partly useful. The Selt is probably doing about 12 on the main volley and another 6 in another volley, the last volley should be on your back and therefore not needing shifting, the other 12 you can split up.

Over three turns, say, the Klink should have put out about 35-40 damage all on the front 3 shields (you should be aiming to hit the number 1 each time), whilst taking maybe 50 back but spread around 4-6 shields. By turn 6 you may be looking at 100 damage, but with good play that will still leave you with 6 intact shields. The Selt should have taken about ~75 mainly on his number 1, minus whatever he can shift to 2 or 6.

If the Selt tries to avoid the number 1 being hit then he gets into issues with bringing weapons to bear and stopping you getting behind him.

Though I am more used to fights with multi ships and not 1 vs 1. In a 3 ship fight you are taking out a shield a turn. You have 5 shields per ship, where as the Selts have 3 before they are struggling badly.

Where the Selt/Lyran has the edge is that the Klink may not really be in a position to go slow (in case he gets overrun). The Selt/Lyran going slow have power over for batteries that the Klink may not be able to afford if he keeps going speed 24.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seltorians have no seeking weapons apart from shuttles, so closing under EM is an option. Selts do more damage at range than the Klingons, and their ships are rather hard kills, so a long range duel favors them. Worse, the Selts have lots of batteries to soak damage with, so you have to hit them pretty hard to get anything useful done. On the other hand, the Klingons have a better turn mode, and the Selt's heavy weapons tend to be FA only. Run in under EM, and get out of their front arc. Do NOT get centerlined, because those LS and RS phaser 1s will really bite.

In general, Klingon-'Selt matchups favor the Selts. The Klingons have to be aggressive and play like they're on the clock, because they are.
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Sebastian380
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RIKER
Worf... when you're out-gunned,
out-manned, and out-equipped --
what else do you have left?

WORF
(long beat)
Guile.

ST:TNG 'Peak Performance'
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some more thoughts...

1) EM is good. All Selt weapons are DF and the odds get crappy against EM.

2) Don't get close in the FA arc...it hurts a lot. Selts can hit almost as hard as the Feds. For example, for the CAs
- Same # of Ph-1s; so leave that out of comparision.
- 4 Overloaded PCs = 32 dam
- 4 normal PCs = 16 dam (separate volley)
- 2 SCs = 8 dam (always separate volley)
- 4 Overloaded Phot = 64 points

Here's the catch...the Fed is firing every 2 turns, while the Selt is firing every 1/2 turn or so and paying less energy for it.

So over 2 turns the damage is

Fed = 64 + phasers (x2); only 1 reinforcement against the 64 though
Selt = 108 + phasers (x2); 6 reinforcement (3 per turn)

Most folks don't realize that the Selts can crunch. Sure you've got more reinforcement, but do you have the energy to actually do it against 3 volleys a turn?

3) Be careful with the overrun. Selts have lots of shuttles. You'll get a point-blank SS if you get carried away with an overrun

4) Do not centerline in the Front arc. Every weapon can bear down the centerline.

Probably best choice for a Klingon is EM with a circle at long range to get out of the FA arc. Once out of FA, close and stick on the Selts tail.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to spell out the energy:

Total energy:
4 Phot: 32 for 64 damage (1 energy to 2 damage)

8 overload PC: 24
8 normal PC: 12
4 SCs: 8
Total: 44 for 108 damage (1 energy to 2.45 damage)

And unlike the Feds, the Selts can get credit for partial damage.

The Fed only has 5 outcomes for damage: 0, 16, 32, 48, 64

The Selts have 21 outcomes depending on if they all miss or what combination of the 20 shots hit. The outcome literally ranges from 0 to 108 in increments of 4 or 8 depending upon hit/miss ratio of overloads.

Most importantly...the Fed has to commit half that energy to his photons from the beginning of each turn (and holding costs). The Selt only commits the energy at the moment of fire. That gives the Selt the flexibility to use that energy for other purposes as the match progresses.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a difference between being able to crunch and deliver a lot of damage over 2 turns. You also need to bear in mind what ranges you are talking about - range 0 crunch is less useful than range 8 crunch. If someone can hit you hard before you get to range 0 then your supposed crunch may not be available at range 0 as you lose weapons, and you may not get to range 0 as the enemy turns away after range 8 - also will you even have the power to pursue if you are powering all weapons?

Energy is important, you make it sound like the Feds have a problem (they do) but the Selts have a much bigger problem power wise when it comes to delivering lots of 'crunch damage'.

Take the comparison with Feds.

First you ignore the drones. Given you have said that the Feds and Selts both have 8 phaser on the centerline I assume we are talking Fed NCA. They have 2 drones, which either hit for 24 damage and zero power, or use up 2 enemy phaser 1s for sure fire killing. Either way gives the Fed an edge, he may well have 4 drones coming in a the 'point of crunch'. Given you are looking at maximum raw potential damage that is another 48 damage to add to the Fed.

A crunch pass is usually happening after 2 armers have already armed up unless you have started close enough to stop them being safe, and this is where the Feds have a huge advantage. They will be fully overloaded before the first important pass, so the power they paid is of no concern in any comparison. On the key turn you are looking at the Feds paying 8 power for 64 damage.

So the Selts and Feds are coming at each other for a range 0 pass (judging by your max damage without misses comparison). What are we looking at.


The Selts need 31 power for all those PC shots (overload and single shot), Shield crackers and phasers. The Fed needs 17 for overloaded photons and phasers. Clearly the Selt is at a massive disadvantage if you are wanting to use all that firepower. Even with batteries the Selts only have 13 power the Fed 25. That means the Fed is going faster and much more likely to have movement intiative, also the Selt at speed 8+ will not be in a position to pursue and close to range 0 if anyone fires earlier.

The selt may fire the 2nd PC volley early or late, but either way it probably hits a second (irrelevant) shield, also by firing at least 3 impulse early it will probably be a lot less damage then what you are showing - 6 damage is more like it rather than 16.

In terms of crunch damage at range 0 that leaves
Fed:
48 from drones
64 from 4 photons
52 from 8 ph1s
8 from 2 ph3s
= 172 damage for 17 power (just over 10 per power).

Selt:
32 from PCs
52 from ph1s
8 from Ph3s
8 from SC
100 for 25 power (4 per power).

In terms of crunch damage there is no comparison what so ever. The Selt might just about take out a cruiser if he can somehow close on it at 8+, the Fed will take out a much bigger ship. Even if we assume the target has 4 Tractors to stop the drones (more power being drained), or lots of ADDs then the Fed is still outdamgaging the Selt by a noticeble margin, and doing it with a lot less power. If someone like the Selt has to use phasers to stop the drones then that halves the phaser damage from 52 to 26, that would leave a Fed vs Selt looking like 124 vs 74, that is a very dead Selt but the Fed survives no problem.

What if the Fed doesn't got to range 0. His Photons hit at range 1 for the same damage, the Selt may miss with a PC. At range 8, assuming the Selt shoots down the drones with 4 phaser 1s we are looking at (average):

Fed
32 from photons
17 from Ph1s
1 from Ph3s
(still about 3 per power)

Selt
12 from PCs
9 from Ph1s
1 from Ph3s.
4 from SC
(down to just over 1 per power)

The Selt takes a chunk of interanls, the Fed takes a burnthrough. The Fed also has a chance of really hammering the Selt, whereas the Selt who gets equally lucky only just takes out the shield to do a handful of internals.


Against a Klingon D5W who goes toe to toe, the Selt still has to handle the 4 drones. So he is doing 74 damage after shooting them down. The Klingon has 4 disrupters and 6 phaser1s (for slightly less power) which is 79 damage. Both will still have some firepower left (rear phasers on the Klink, 2nd PC Volley on Selt). In a head on pass there is not much difference, the winner may well come down to who takes the worst batch of internals, though again, Klink manouverability and weapon arcs probably give him an egde in the after the range 0 pass.

In a long range 15ish duel the Selt out puts 8 PC shots and 8 Ph1s, 20 power = 20 damage per turn. The Klink 4 Disr, 6 Ph1s 2 Ph2s, 16 power = 15 damage. The Selt still has to deal with drones though, 2 Ph3s kill 1 and 3 Ph1s kill the others, that reduces his damage to 17 vs 15. The Selt cannot go speed 24 whilst doing that, the Klink can but probably doesn't. If both are going relatively slow then they both have batteriies to use, that reduces the likely damage to 11 damage on the Klink vs 8 on the Selt, so the Selt is taking less damage, and the klink will at some point have to ease up on the drones. Overall the Selt may doing more like 13 vs 8 in a long battle.

The big difference though is that the Selt has half the effective shields. Indeed in someways he has even less than that. The Front shield is so vital to the selt, and he will struggle to stop the klink hitting it. The klink really has no vital shield, and has less problems rotating as the damage will be getting spread around naturally. Overall I think a well played Klink (D5 hulls anwyay) is sligtly stronger in a long range fight. Though it is still close.

Not to say that a klink (or anyone) getting behind the selt isn't good. But that is hard if the Selt goes slow.
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