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Gorn Tactics...
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Maxwell Luther
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:09 pm    Post subject: Gorn Tactics... Reply with quote

Yesterday I played a game with a Gorn T-Rex against a War Eagle and King Eagle, with a 2-board asteroid field in the middle of a 3x4 board set up. We didn't get to finish the game, but by the end, the Gorn and the KE had been lit up by multiple plasma torpedoes, most of which were delivered at 1 Impulse range. Had the game continued, I'm sure the War Eagle would have managed to swing back around and finish the Gorn off (although the KE wasn't going to be much help, if it lasted at all).

My questions considering the use of the Gorn:

1. The ship maneuvers like a pig. I was going faster than the 'birds just to keep them from outmaneuvering me, but it seems that in any situation where the Gorn are outnumbered, it is going to be a bear keeping the distance and making the heading changes necessary to keep from getting torched by Plasma. Sabre Dancing seems totally out of the question. Ideas?

2. Plasma Tactics: When both parties rely on Plasma, and both want to get 'stuck in' to deliver said plasma, it seems a forgone conclusion that there is going to be some mutually assured destruction in the near future. I even considered holding F Torps to shoot at R Torps as a defense, but by the time you get close, the damned things get you before you can counter them in the Launch phase. And, I'm not even sure that is legit, rules-wise anyway. Enlighten me.

3. Should I rely more on Cannonades and hold the S and R Torps until the absolute last moment? The only problem I had was that the Cannonades required me to get up close and personal with the 'birds. That's great when they're cloaked, but when they decloak and HET on you, Gorn just don't have the dexterity to avoid a fiery response. Also, during the game, I took out the S and R torps on Torpedo hits to save the F-Tubes for Cannonades, which were quicker to load (the others having been spent and taking way too long to charge anyways). Good idea or bad idea?

So just how do the lizards lick the Romulans?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NB this is based on Gorns or Roms with the existing cloak rules, not Roms with the potential improved cloak rules that have been discussed elsewhere.

1. In a game with plasma everyone is (or should be) going fast. The plasma ships to get close to the enemy, either to launch or keep him under pressure, and the enemy to have the speed to get away from plasma. If the enemy goes fast and you don't then you will struggle to get the plasma in. If you go fast and the enemy doesn't he is toast.

2. You cannot plasma a plasma. The only thing that can shoot a plasma is a phaser.

It is still not a foregone conclusion that there will be mutually assured destruction in the near future - plasma takes 3 turns to reload so if the other guy is moving fast and/or HETs then your plasma launch may achieve little and you spend 3 turns reloading. Plasma vs Plasma tend to be the slowest games around.

3. That's all situational. Carronades are good, but hitting with the full plasma is better. Hitting with a full plasma is harder. Sometimes you will hold your big plasma until you are close, others you fire further away to keep the other guy 'honest'. If you think the other guy is going to HET on you soon then a plasma fired before hand will force him to eat it before he can launch if he HETs on you, or keep him running away for a few impulses. The trick is gauging what is the right amount to make him do what you want, or make him eat enough to do damage whilst you take none in return.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a tendency to bolt my plasma's. It's not a set in stone tactic for me, but it is a tendency. Sometimes it's all you can do against speedy enemy.

Don't forget about the upgrade rule. It's not a bad idea to load a smaller torp and then upgrade before firing. Much cheaper hold cost and more energy for other things if you don't fire.

Gorn's are really set up for passing engagements. Almost all of the ships are set up for L/R shots. One standard tactic is to make a pass with the enemy on one side (i.e, the left). Launch/bolt the left torps, then make a WIDE turn and hit them with right torps on the next turn. When done aggressively, you've got torps on the board 2 out of 3 turns, and can 2-turn a PL-F on the 3rd turn if you need it.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are playing on a small (32*40) tourney size map the 3 turn reload will kill you quite often, as most enemies can mitigate the plasma strike and then get you trapped whilst you have little return fire for a turn or 2.

An open map just allows someone to keep running, though if they are running they are not usually dooing much back to you, and you can beat a number of empires through simple phasering them up the backside.

The ideal map size, not just for Gorns but for FedCom IMO in general, is between 64 - 99 on each length. We tend to play on a 56*64 map at least. That sort of size doesn't disadvantage the multi turn armers to the same extent whilst still allowing for a map edge to stop the run away for ever. Plus the game is faster than SFB, which effetively shrinks the map size compared to SFB.

On such a larger map as we play on I find Gorns are pretty good. The basic idea is to get the other guy running from you or your plasma then just pulling in behind him moving fast. At some point he runs out of room to run, whilst you then hopefully have the room to run afterwards if you need to. The hard bit is getting that first bit right. The Feds for example can be a pain if they have overloaded photons - it is hard getting them turning away before they get their range 8 shot, but it can be done. Klingons and the like are easier as they don't have the crunch to put you off playing chicken with them (but their manouverability can make it hard getting in behind them). Once you are in a chase position then it comes down to adapting to what the other guy can do - drones make life awkard keepinig a good chase/intercept position, wide arc disrupters can make things painful, though as long as you push them hard they don't have the power to really hammer you. Rear firing plasma is a 'mare. So it is isn't plain sailing, but once you get that chase position things should favor you,

After that your main issue is the HET - you don't want the enemy HETing, and being away before you can get some plasma to hit, that is where the odd big plasma launched pre emptively comes in, force them to take that and if needed avoid any fire from them whilst you get back into a chase position. They ony have 1 free HET, and if they take some damage it helps wear them down. Otherwise they have to keep running to avoid the big plasma.

If you do get them to the map edge and are going to soon launch plasma then be aware of any HET they may use to avoid it. If you have done it right you should have a lot of plasma left (I'm assuming a squadron size game), so don't be afraid to split it when you lob it out so that whilst he can get away from one lot he can't avoid the other lot. If you have been phasering down one ship, and can nobble another with some plasma then you should now be in a good position to run away and avoid any hot pursuit your self. Gorn phasers arcs give you semi decent rear firepower if he does, and if you still have a side plasma F or 3 (that couldn't fire in the main volley) then that can put a dent in anyone chasing after you.

The other thing to watch for is the enemy who realises he is heading for bad position and HETs to attack and accept the plama, if they do at a close enough range then your inability to turn well can put you at a disadvantage. Again Feds with overloads are probably the worst here - you can lose ships before you launch. This is usually more a threat early in a turn when they still have energy to do things. If the enemy has the power for a HET at that sort of closish range try and make sure you have the power for a counter HET, or decels etc. Especially be aware of the tractor energy position, such a counter attack often puts you at range 0-1 to someone and tractors can be a decider when plasma is involved, I have taken everything someone can hit me with and done no shooting at all myself just so I can out tractor them for a subsequent plasma launch. So long as you are ready for it then you shoud usually come out better against people doing that, it is hard to take a lot of plasma and come off better in an exchange. When such a counter attack happens though you may come off worse because your ships got some what spread out and therefore plasma comes in from different arcs, which means the enemy gets to use a lot more shields, so again keep your eye out before hand to check you are not getting spread out to allow that of counter attack.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maxwell Luther wrote:

Quote:
3. Should I rely more on Cannonades and hold the S and R Torps until the absolute last moment? The only problem I had was that the Cannonades required me to get up close and personal with the 'birds. That's great when they're cloaked, but when they decloak and HET on you, Gorn just don't have the dexterity to avoid a fiery response. Also, during the game, I took out the S and R torps on Torpedo hits to save the F-Tubes for Cannonades, which were quicker to load (the others having been spent and taking way too long to charge anyways). Good idea or bad idea?


You should rely on Carronades, but turn the S and R torps loose early, and after that, reload them only as two turn Fs. Which you will bolt. Turn the heavy torps loose and bore in. Turn the Romulans, get on their six, and carronade them to death. If they launch seeking plasma, use the phasers to burn some of it down. You can take more damage than they can, so if you trade heavy torp for heavy torp, you come out ahead.

And yes, save those F torp launchers. They are gold.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storyelf wrote:

Quote:
The Feds for example can be a pain if they have overloaded photons - it is hard getting them turning away before they get their range 8 shot, but it can be done.


It can be done, but after you do it, do you still have enough plasma left to do anything useful after the Feds run your first plasma volley out if they choose to do so? The Romulans have enough heavy plasma to turn the Feds, but that only helps if you still have a follow up strike in reserve. The Gorns have the carronade, and the Romulans don't.

In a squadron game, you can bolt at range ten, and reduce the damage you take before the Feds get to range eight. This is highly luck dependent. To quote Dirty Harry, do you feel lucky?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klingon of Gor wrote:

It can be done, but after you do it, do you still have enough plasma left to do anything useful after the Feds run your first plasma volley out if they choose to do so? The Romulans have enough heavy plasma to turn the Feds, but that only helps if you still have a follow up strike in reserve. The Gorns have the carronade, and the Romulans don't.

In a squadron game, you can bolt at range ten, and reduce the damage you take before the Feds get to range eight. This is highly luck dependent. To quote Dirty Harry, do you feel lucky?


Yes it can be done, and yes you should easily have plenty of plasma left, (or the Feds are a wreck).

If you are playing on a good sized map as I suggested, 99*99 being nice, then things are very very different to the small map game.

Your first 'volley' only has to be 1 or 2 plasma (out of 12 in a squad game for Gorns) and plasma F will do, if the Feds are coming at you fast then with overloads they are going to struggle to shoot much plasma down. If they do not turn away then it will hit on a front half shield. Then they have to take some more to keep closing, and some more etc. Your phasers can shoot them as well further weakening them. Because you are not trapped on a map edge the Feds simply cannot barge through the plasma and fire overloads. They are simply racking up damage and doing none in return.

The Feds are between a rock and hard place if you play it right - charge in taking the damage with no guarantee of getting to fire those overloads, or turn away and be in a bad position with Gorns chasing you and still packing 200+ plasma.

There is absolutely no reason to bolt at Feds in such a game. Not at that point anyway, that's just daft.

If you are going to bolt then do it after you have chased him towards a map edge, on impulse 8 as you get close to such a position with him facing away (more or less) from you bolt everything bar some rearward firing Fs. You will only be without plasma for 2 turns before it is all back up, and on the larger map you have that time to run and use the rear firing Fs to deter close chases. If you are lucky you nobble a ship with your bolts, avoid taking any massive damage in your downtime, and then face him with 3 plasma ships to 2 or 2.5 of his ships. If however you bolt before he gets range 8 at the start you will probably be in no where near as good a position, as he is already heading straight at you, probably mid map and not necessarily end of turn (meaning you have longer to rearm). Never fire bolts in such a position unless you are really desperate. Plasma in the tube is worth far more than 2-3 turns being empty when the enemy is in a good position to do something about it.


The trickier Fed to deal with on the larger map is the one who realises that overloads can be a millstone and sticks with standards. In that case you need to watch out for the range 12 shot, 3 Fed cruisers can average 50 damage with photons and phasers at that range, and then keep away whilst rearming to do it again.
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Maxwell Luther
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Joined: 10 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, from all this, I'm gathering the following tactics for Gorn:

1. High speed for fly-bys. I'm assuming the corollary is once you've shot your wad, you slow down and turn around to increase the range and charge up again before turning back.

2. Larger map for maneuverability.

3. Launch S+ to force enemy to HET and flee, range 9+, especially Feds then phaser and 2-Turn F them up the backside (ewww, that sounded dirty).

4. Keep the Fs, damage the S+.

5. If enemy plasma is launched, save phasers for detonating it.

6. Speedy enemies get the Plasma Bolt.

Someone mentioned new Cloak rules. Where would these be, then?
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All my opinion obviously:

Quote:

1. High speed for fly-bys. I'm assuming the corollary is once you've shot your wad, you slow down and turn around to increase the range and charge up again before turning back.


Depends on who you are taking on. Generally I'd say high speed to go straight at someone and then to chase them hard and keep them under pressure, you are not after a fly by usually. You have to agress them and keep the pressure on, forcing them to go fast and making it harder to attack you without facing the plasma. It is hard to deal with plasma ships who are behind you and close by, so that is where you are therefore aiming to be.

The start of your game may look more like a fly by, but that is simply that it is then easier to turn in on them, rather than being an actual fly-by.

Now some like Roms are more awkward - they have the same weapon as you (plasma) and a cloak, which with the mooted play test rules are capable of shedding plasma easily.

Other like the Kzinti have mass drones to lob back at you making a chase awkward. Each enemy has its challenges that may require changing things, but the basic principle is to make it hard for them to attack you and wear them down over time.

That is usually best done by being behind them with lots of plasma in the tube (threat is high) and making sure you have lots of room to run after launching it all because of the long rearm time.

Afterwards only slow down as much as you have to, arming 2 S and an F (with the other still in the tube hopefully) still allows you to go speed 32 for 2 turns and putting distance between you and the enemy. If he wants to keep up then that is power that he can't shoot you with. On turn 3 you can go speed 24 (and a bit of +), but at that point you can start attacking again.

Quote:

2. Larger map for maneuverability.


Not manoeuvrability, no amount of room will make Gorns manoeuvrable. It is about your arming cycle. You need the room to play on that doesn't massively disadvantage someone who takes 3 turns to arm their main weapon. A small (as in 32*40 ish) map makes it almost impossible to recover against anyone who negates your first volley as you have to no way of avoiding them during rearming.

Quote:

3. Launch S+ to force enemy to HET and flee, range 9+, especially Feds then phaser and 2-Turn F them up the backside (ewww, that sounded dirty).


Forcing someone to HET early is a big bonus, but you do want them to turn in such a way that you can manoeuvre behind them. It doesn't have to be plasma S to do that, again that may be down to the situation, a couple of Fs might do it, or you may face someone who requires something a bit more 'forceful'.

I'd only 2 turn arm if I really, really had to. Whilst I wouldn't write of bolts, carronades or 2 turn Fs, they are all weakening you in some ways and shouldn't be your preferred choice.

Quote:

4. Keep the Fs, damage the S+.


Again situational. Fs are nice if you are going to be in close and carronading, but that is far from a given. Bigger plasma is better in other cases.

Quote:

5. If enemy plasma is launched, save phasers for detonating it.


Only if you have no choice, speed is also a defense. Phasering the enemy is nicer than phasering a plasma, but if you have to then you have to.

Quote:

6. Speedy enemies get the Plasma Bolt.


No - all enemies are speedy against plasma (or dead). Don't bolt unless you really need to. Sheperd the enemy where you want (a map edge) then launch real plasma.

Whilst bolts give you immediate damage that can't be avoided, it is both a gamble (hit wise) and allows the enemy to immediately turn on you. If you launch real plasma then the enemy has to consider that if he turns to attack you straight away he may take a crap load of extra damage, so you give yourself extra time to avoid him whilst rearming.

Quote:

Someone mentioned new Cloak rules. Where would these be, then?


There was a long discussion here, you will have to read through to find the bits that have been seriously proposed and semi accepted as worth play testing by MWest.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maxwell Luther wrote:

Quote:
1. High speed for fly-bys. I'm assuming the corollary is once you've shot your wad, you slow down and turn around to increase the range and charge up again before turning back.


Turning away to increase the range in Fedcom is problematic. The enemy may well be as fast as you are. If the enemy is Feds, he can run speed 24 sustained, and maybe kick it up to 24+1 for a short dash, depending on his energy reserves and whether he's holding overloads. If the enemy is Romulan, he likely has more energy than you.

Quote:
2. Larger map for maneuverability.


In a squadron game, especially a tournament, you don't get to dictate the map size. Ditto for a scenario, unless you're rolling your own. No matter how big the map, remember that he may as fast as you, or faster, and quite possibly aggressive to boot.

Quote:
3. Launch S+ to force enemy to HET and flee, range 9+, especially Feds then phaser and 2-Turn F them up the backside (ewww, that sounded dirty).


I have, on occasion, threatened to hold them down and insert the plasma manually.

Quote:
4. Keep the Fs, damage the S+.


If the S is fully charged, you might decide to keep it, at least if it's impulse 8, and you know you won't get a chance to launch it at a worthwhile target before the end of the turn. But in general, yes, keep the F.

Quote:
5. If enemy plasma is launched, save phasers for detonating it.


Storyelf's point about speed being a defense is well taken. But it depends on an awful lot. Phasers cost energy, but so does buying acceleration. In general, I'd rather phaser the plasma down than turn and lose the initiative, but I may be looking at too much plasma and not enough phasers. I don't think there is one hard and fast answer for this that will apply in all circumstances. It's a judgement call, and the ability to judge correctly will distinguish the superior captain from the merely average. I think there is an old Chinese proverb that he who can adjust his tactics is truly a captain under heaven. Or maybe that's Sun Tzu. I've probably mangled the quote in any case, but you get the idea. May you become a captain under heaven.

Quote:

6. Speedy enemies get the Plasma Bolt.


In general yes, but as with all general rules there will be exceptions depending on where you are in the turn, the target ship's reserve power, range, angle of shot, and whether his turn mode is satisfied. If you are looking at the south end of his ship, bolts may be the only option.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In a squadron game, especially a tournament, you don't get to dictate the map size.


There is nothing special about squadron games what so ever in terms of map size.

In a tourney or published scenarios you do not get to choose map size true, but otherwise you certainly can, no matter whether it is a single, squadron or fleet size game.

With a published scenario you would hope the scenario would have been tested for balance anyway, and often they involve 'tricky' situations that require non standard tactics with prima facie unbalanced forces (points wise), making what we are talking about here in general terms only vaguely useful. Unfortunately in our groups experience the testing for balance bit has been missed and we no longer waste time playing published scenarios. Maybe there are some better ones nowadays.

Map size is one of the main reasons that the 'standard' tourney is dominated by just a couple of empires, with a couple of other being sort of good as well, and the rest being hopelessy outclassed. A small map for simple 'kill all' point based Fed Com is fundamentally unbalanced. It massively favors the empires that can deliver huge amounts of damage at very close range, because there is nothing you can do to prevent such an attack very early in the game (turn 2 usually). Anyone whose tactics are based more on range and/or time is usually fighting a major uphill battle.

The ideal map size IMO (and experience so far) is 99*99, or there abouts. That provides distance for those that require time to wear down the crunch empires, and it provides distance for those that require 3 turns to rearm. It also forces some of the crunch empires to think a bit more about what they are doing when they cannot be sure of hitting overload range on turn 2 but still ensures they can trap them agaisn the map edge eventually. There are issues that map size cannot really solve (e.g. some seriously wrong point values) but larger maps defintalely make FedCom a lot more balanced IMO and allow for a wider range of tactics. Feds for example on a small tourney map should just be sticking with the sit still and full overload on turn 1 then charge the enemy on turn 2 tactic. On the larger map they really have to think hard about that as they can be paying heavy hold costs for longer than they afford if they need to chase someone down. It can work, but it is no longer the default tactic.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storyelf wrote:

Quote:
There is nothing special about squadron games what so ever in terms of map size.


Unless you happen to be in one. I don't know if the fellow has ever played in a tournament, or if he aspires to do so, but if he does, the point is valid. The battlefield is what it is. I do, however, agree with you that a larger map is preferable. Note that if the enemy can sustain speed 24 and throw a lot of heavy crunch firepower all the way out to, say, range 8, playing keep away may be rather difficult on any closed map.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I meant was that the fact you playing a squadron game doesn't mean the players cannot decide on the map size just as they have to in any other game. There is nothing saying a squadron game must be played on a 32*40 map.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Note that if the enemy can sustain speed 24 and throw a lot of heavy crunch firepower all the way out to, say, range 8, playing keep away may be rather difficult on any closed map.


certainly if he goes fast enough then on any closed map he will eventually catch you. He probably needs faster than speed 24 though if you can maintain a higher speed.

But on a large enough map you will likely have 3 turns before you are caught, which can make a big difference, allowing you to take out front shields before they arrive, or do noticeable internals to one of them etc.

Against Gorns, which was this threads topic, the larger map makes an enourmous difference. It means that if someone wants to get you he has to keep eating plasma that you dribble out with no certainty that he gets a big shot at you immediately afterwards, whilst running away puts him in a bad position.
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Maxwell Luther
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I don't play tournaments (and probably never will, as I like to enjoy my gaming time) and every game I've played at this point has been on a floating map, so boundaries really haven't been an issue.

No, the issue has been the poor maneuverability of the Gorn hulls against another plasma armed ship, particularly the Romulans. Granted, the one game I've played was against a squadron with a 30+ point advantage on my DD, but still, I would think a DD would be better able to withstand some close up knife-fighting. But even in Squadron scale, Plasma is damned dangerous. Even phasers don't do much against with the 1/2 damage ratio.

Honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing how the Gorn do so well against the much more nimble, if more lightly armed, Romulans in the fiction (especially considering those new cloak rules).
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