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D7 vs CA: How do the Feds get close?
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McGanger
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Location: Zurich, Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:24 pm    Post subject: D7 vs CA: How do the Feds get close? Reply with quote

How do the Feds get close?

OK, maybe i am missing something, but after a few runthroughs with a D7 against CA (squadron scale, open map):

For the Klingon it is clear: Sabre dance, use your superior energy and manoeuvrability, keep away from him, snipe, and wait till he gets impatient, then barrel in behind one or two drone waves and blast him. If he is still standing, fly away and redo from start. Easy.

For the Fed it is more difficult: Be patient, try to close, and don't let loose your photons until you are (relatively) sure of a hit.

What else should the Fed do?

(I only ask to improve my klingon tactics ( Cool - if there were an emoticon with a Klingon-style goatee, I would use it here))
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Once they have the photons loaded, they've got extra power to put into speed.

If the Fed is going faster, he can overcome his turn mode by moving more and run down the klink. With his extra boxes, Ph-1s, and Phot, exchanging alpha strikes is always a win for the fed.

Alternately, the fed could use EM. That'll force you to get closer for your shots to be effective. Drop EM, HET, and unload overloaded photons, bye bye Klink.

For the klink drones, the fed can easily deal with those using combinations of speed, drones targeted on drones, ADDs used offensively, and phasers. Drones are useful for taking away options, but don't depend on them.

Also, some feds will only load 2-3 photons to give them more power for movement and other things. Better to have fewer photons that might actually fire than a full load that never fires.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a fully open map you will always have the problem that both sides will struggle to win. With nothing to force them to get close and personal either side can keep away from the other. That applies to the D7 especially as the CA is so short on power and can't chase whilst holding photons (or he can but has no power to shoot with so its moot).

That said it is not all that easy for a D7 to maintain range whilst trying to snipe, it doesn't have the wide disrupter arcs of the D5s, and when it tries to turn to bring them in it will give up a lot of range.

There is no way the Fed is doing what DNordeen said above - EM, Het and unload overload photons. That's 19 power leaving it 17-21 power for movement depending on battery power. If you are going that slow then EM isn't going to save you from being worn down at range 15 where overloads will never hit.

The Fed needs to forget about hitting with an overload volley at all on a fully open map, he'll never get the klingon in range as he can't go speed 32 for more than 1 turn and no klingon is coming into range 8 deliberately until you are more or less dead in the water.

Things that Fed might try - none are guaranteed to work, but they all make life awkward for the D7.

Range 25 photons - the long run average is better for the D7, and on closed maps the Fed may get run down. But on a fully open map the D7 can't run you down. The Fed is looking for that lucky strike which wrecks a shield, something that the klink can't do in return.

Any shooting at the D7 back shield - If the Fed hits the rear shield hard that put a spanner in the D7s run away tactics. Throw in photons as above when possible - if you are hitting his back then he is in a bad position to run to you down (cos he's facing away from you). This may be particularly useful if the D7 keeps coming to range 15 and then turns away - at that range the Ph1s can hit quite well so wait until he has his rear back round to you and fire.

Range 12 photons. If the D7 keeps coming into range 15 to get those good disrupter shots, and better phaser shots then he will also probably try and turn away just after this. You may well manage to close to range 12, take the photon shot then, 1/3 chance of hitting again gives a decent chance of getting lucky and whacking a shield, a rear one hopefully. Try an make sure the klingon reaches range 15 about impulse 6, so that your range 12 shot may be on impulse 8. That only leaves you 1 turn with no photons and the D7 facing the wrong way.


If he is fighting, or starts, at extreme range facing away from you then declare speed 0, go EM. If you are holding 4 standard photons that is 10 power. You could repair 10 shields or so whilst still having power to reinforce. Repairing faster than he can damage you will at least make him realise he is in for one boring game. Just be aware of the drone position, maybe only do this when he is reloading drone racks.

Get to range 26 if you can, drop photons and run. use the 4 spare power to slowly repair shields, and damcon to repair. Then start again.
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McGanger
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:

For the klink drones, the fed can easily deal with those using combinations of speed, drones targeted on drones, ADDs used offensively, and phasers. Drones are useful for taking away options, but don't depend on them.


I quite agree, the drones are more a way of using up his valuable power than a real attempt to cause any damage.

As for the rest, I will run it through the simulator and see what comes out.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot in Fed Klingon matchups depends on the initial conditions. On a closed map, the Feds will likely close whether the Klinks like it or not, and the smaller the map, the sooner that's going to be. On an open map, things get more complicated.

Part of using the photon torpedo well consists in knowing when to overload, and when not to. In the case you're describing, speed and standard loads would be my choice, since you need power for chasing the Klingons down. Standard loads will kill a D7, though it may take longer to do it. Another choice you have is to just load three torpedoes, and use the power you save to buy movement. You don't always have to load all four torps.

The Feds really have the advantage in this matchup, because the Klingon D7 doesn't have expanded disruptor arcs, and when they come around for a firing pass, the Fed will gain ground on them if he plotted speed 24. Every time the Klnks come around to use their disruptors, they lose a little ground, and as long as the Feds remain at speed 24, it's going to be hard for them to get it back. The Fed can fire a photon or two per turn, and eventually, he'll start getting internals. Or he can just wait for the Klingon to come inside range 8 on some future firing pass. (Unless the D7 is planning to use phasers only) So time really favors the Feds. It may be a long chase, but the old saber dance from SFB is really nonviable under Fedcom rules if the Fed shows any aggression at all.

Use your offensive drones for drone defense, and phasers after the drone rack goes dry. You have to waste a power point killing a drone if you use phasers, but after his racks go dry it stops being a problem.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...my public math caught me on that one. I forgot to add something somewhere... Embarassed

I would disagree with the saber dance being non-viable. I find it works quite well.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aye - I don't think either side really has a proper advantage here. Unless the klingon is prepared to go close it will be a very long game.

Whilst the D7 lacks the good wide arcs it still has a clear manouver and power/speed advantage.

Whilst the D7 has to give up a lot of range when he turns to fire disrupters the Fed lacks the power to take full advantage of it. If you are firing standards non stop (be it ripple fire or all in 1 go) then that is 8 power per turn, add in speed 24 and you only have 4 spare power once batteries run out. If you find yourself using a power or 2 to deal with drones then you give up even more ground.

The other issue the Fed has is that running at high speed with standard photons leaves him vulnerable to being run over by a sudden switch in klingon tactics. With little power left over for Ph1s or overloading he can face a poor exchange at close range and then the klingon speeds away behind the Fed who can't pay for a HET to catch him. If he fires his photons he will possibly be stuck at close range whilst rearming (or worse tractored), if he doesn't it was a very one sided exchange.

The klingon can make this tricky by ending a turn having just shot at range 15 and ready to turn away or turn in. That leaves the Fed either slowing down ready for the close fight, or going fast ready for the chase, where the klingon can just choose speed 24 and be a decent position either way. Under some circumstances the D7 could even go speed 16 and have overload power up and be in a reasonable position no matter what the Fed does.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiousity, how much would the balance shift (if at all) when trying to run the same duel with the Middle Years versions of each ship?
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the MY Fed doesn't have rear firing phasers which means the klink can get in behind and stay there without taking fire.

The MY D7 though has lost it's Ph-1s and has very weak shields so the 1-hit wonder from the Fed is even more dangerous.

For good players D7 and CA is a good match up. For new players, the D7 gets walloped.
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McGanger
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, thanks. plenty to think about.

Can these tactics be tried out using fleet scale ships? Seems the common opinion is that the D7/CA duel goes on for a longggggg time.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storyelf wrote:

Quote:
The other issue the Fed has is that running at high speed with standard photons leaves him vulnerable to being run over by a sudden switch in klingon tactics. With little power left over for Ph1s or overloading he can face a poor exchange at close range and then the klingon speeds away behind the Fed who can't pay for a HET to catch him. If he fires his photons he will possibly be stuck at close range whilst rearming (or worse tractored), if he doesn't it was a very one sided exchange.


Well, if the photon torpedoes miss, the Fed player is in a lot of trouble, and sometimes they do miss. I said earlier that Klingon-Fed matchups can depend heavily on the starting conditions chosen. They can also depend heavily on luck, because a lot may come down who the dice hate that day when the Fed player rolls for those photons to hit.

But that's really another reason not to overload. Photon torpedoes have been known to miss. Phasers at close range, however...For two points of power, the Feds might do more damage with two phaser 1s at close range than the extra damage the overloads would do if they hit. And they might not hit.

One other point. Once your drone racks go dry, the Klingon can go to EM and bore in. Your photon torpedoes might hit him hard if he tries this, or the dice might hate you. If you hold onto one drone, then it will at least give him something to think about if tries to close and get behind you. He can take one drone, of course, but ni conjunction with close range phaser fire it's going to hurt.

Quote:
The Klingon can make this tricky by ending a turn having just shot at range 15 and ready to turn away or turn in. That leaves the Fed either slowing down ready for the close fight, or going fast ready for the chase, where the Klingon can just choose speed 24 and be a decent position either way. Under some circumstances the D7 could even go speed 16 and have overload power up and be in a reasonable position no matter what the Fed does.


This kind of thinking will get you killed. Don't worry about what the enemy might do you, focus on what you're going to do to him. If the Klingon turns toward you, bore in and punch him hard in the face. You can take more damage than he can. If he turns away, chase after him. Cut him if he stands, shoot him if he runs. If you flinch, you've already lost. You can take a harder pounding than he can, so get in there and start trading punches. You may lose if your photon torpedoes miss, but that's a risk for any Fed player in any game against anybody.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
They can also depend heavily on luck,


Well, obviously, its a game with dice, and photons are reknowned for being THE streaky weapon.

Quote:
But that's really another reason not to overload.


Luck has no particular relevance in whether you overload or not. In the standard 'tourney' setup you'd usually be dumb not to overload, the fact that you might get unlucky doesn't factor into it. In this particular case you probably shouldn't overload as a default, but again it has nothing to do with luck - it's purely down to power in a scenario where you can't catch the enemy, or shoot at him if you do overload.

Quote:
Phasers at close range, however...For two points of power, the Feds might do more damage with two phaser 1s at close range than the extra damage the overloads would do if they hit.


Technically true, but not usually worth noting - at range 0 you roll a 1 and do 9 damage which is 1 more than the same 1 power holding an overload will do.

Quote:
This kind of thinking will get you killed. Don't worry about what the enemy might do you,


That is so wrong. This game revolves around understanding who is coming off better in any exchange of fire, what is the likely affect on next (and future) turns positions/damage/power etc. That absolutely requires that you understand and react to what the enemy can do. Only considering what you can do to the enemy is extremely naive play and will lose way more games than it will win.


Quote:
If you flinch, you've already lost.


No plan survives contact with the enemy, if you think it does you lose.

Quote:
If the Klingon turns toward you, bore in and punch him hard in the face.


Really, with 4 standard photons and 4 spare power? If you go point blank you can give a bit of a smarting, but you probably just lost, as the Klingon will probably do it better, and do it again next turn whilst you can't. You probably also then got hit by 2 drones as well just to rub your nose in it.

Quote:
You can take more damage than he can.

Quote:
You can take a harder pounding than he can,


Yes and no. You can take, what? 6 points more damage overall and are better 'padded', but you are more power starved so can ill afford power loss and can't repair and fire heavy weapons like the D7 can.

Quote:
so get in there and start trading punches.


Where his better power, manouverability, drones, phaser arcs etc all work against you. It might be OK if you had a punch, but with 4 standard photons and naff all power you don't have any more punch than the other guy barring good luck, and you get hosed the following turn.

Quote:
You may lose if your photon torpedoes miss, but that's a risk for any Fed player in any game against anybody.


Good players understand how photons work and play based on that. Charging in and scratching off a loss to bad rolls isn't good play.
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Klingon of Gor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Quote:
If the Klingon turns toward you, bore in and punch him hard in the face.


Really, with 4 standard photons and 4 spare power? If you go point blank you can give a bit of a smarting, but you probably just lost, as the Klingon will probably do it better, and do it again next turn whilst you can't. You probably also then got hit by 2 drones as well just to rub your nose in it.


Well, what exactly should the Fed player do if the D7 turns toward him and charges? Turn and run away? He won't likely outrun the D7, unless the Klingons are down significant power, and if he turns away, then his photons torpedoes will no longer bear. I say that if the Klingon turns and closes so as to put himself in the best range for the Fed's most potent weapon, the the Feds would be well advised to shoot him. In the face, as it were. I fail to see why the alternative of not shooting him would be better.

But let's get back to the situation you described. It's the end of the turn. The Klingon D7 is at range 15, in the Fed's forward arc. What speed should the Fed set?

The reason that the saber dance came to be was that it was understood by Klingon players, based on extensive experience, that getting too close to a fed ship was a losing proposition for them. But they could use their speed, turn mode, and broad weapon arcs to employ their weapons to good effect. Disruptors, properly employed, can be very effective weapons, but against a ship like a CA, with good shields, and numerous internals, they will take time to work. So for the Klingons, to win, they must play a patience game and they need to play keep away, at least until they have worn the Feds down.

If the Klingons sees the Fed slowing down to speed 16, then assuming the Fed isn't down some power already, it can mean only one thing - he's planning to overload photons. So the Klingon isn't likely to close, unless he's suicidal. He's more likely to turn away, and the Feds will need to chase after him But the Feds won't close with the Klingons by running speed 16. If they do, they're playing his game, and the Klingon, running speed 24, will be able to fire and turn away, playing the patience game that favors him. Of course, the Feds might then use the power they saved to buy acceleration, but the net result is then zero. (Unless the Fed was foolish enough to actually overload his torps, in which case he's in real trouble, because now he's stuck paying holding costs.)

If the Fed drops to running speed 16 out of fear that the Klingon might close and shoot at him, then he he's playing the Klingon's game. He's letting them dictate the terms of the engagement. He is, based on his fear of what the enemy might do, adopting a course of action that conforms exactly to what the enemy wants him to do. This is what I mean when I say if you flinch, you lose. I don't expect my plan to survive contact with the enemy, but neither do I intend for the enemy to survive contact with me. I don't want to play his game, I want to force him to play mine. By attacking at speed 24, I deny him the opportunity to fire, turn away, open the distance, and then turn toward me to fire again, all the while remaining outside my most effective range.

So we get back to the question that started this thread, which was how can a CA close with an uncooperative D7, to which the answer is that the CA needs to go fast. Otherwise, the D7, running at a faster speed, will be able to play keep away, and will have the advantage. If you want to close with them, then you have to run fast enough to close with them. Doing so will preclude tooling around with overloads. I am not sure why this proposition is controversial.
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McGanger
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the lively discussion.

Looking at the numbers: If both are going at speed 32, discounting batteries, the Klingon has 7 energy left over, the fed (with 4 holding costs for the photons) has exactly zero.

Which is one reason for slinging drones at him of course, he needs one to two points of energy to be safe from them, but also means the Klingon can fire 3 Phaser 1's and 4 Phaser 2's per turn, unanswered. Average salvo damage at range 15 is only 4.3, but it still beats the Feds zero!

So I still am not sure what the fed should do. Gonna try the above tactics out.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, what exactly should the Fed player do if the D7 turns toward him and charges?


My original point was not about what should you do, but that you have put yourself in that position in the first place, if you follow your advice of run fast and keep firing. In many cases that is an advantage for the D7.

Quote:
If you want to close with them, then you have to run fast enough to close with them. Doing so will preclude tooling around with overloads. I am not sure why this proposition is controversial.


That bit isn't. But it also precludes shooting the photons as you also proposed. You don't have the power to run fast and keep putting power into photons, if you can't hold overloads due to power then clearly you can't be paying the same power to keep arming them either.

In order to have any chance of catching the klingon he has to do speed 32. If he can't then he can't catch the D7 if the D7 doesn't want to be caught. If he goes speed 32 then he can't fire anything, and therfore can't do damage. The D7 can do speed 32 and inflict 2 damage (average) per turn whilst never turning toward the Fed. Therefore that is a guaranteed klingon win if the Fed is at speed 32.

That is why, contrary to what you said, the Fed does not have the advantage. He has to slow down to do damage, and therefore hands the D7 the range/manouver advantage. The Fed is between a rock and a hard place, he can do things to mitigate the D7 edge, but can't ever really say he has the advantage.
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