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captured ships
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edwinfeds
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Joined: 05 Jan 2013
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:46 am    Post subject: captured ships Reply with quote

Question, Have 21 Andromedans cobras and Mambas fighting 24 Vudar ships. As we are fighting a campaign game if I am able to capture one of his ships, what rules are available for taking a captured ship repairing it and have it join my side for later use.
Since Andromedans do not have to lower their PA to use transporter I think I will have opportunity to capture at least one of his ships in the current battle.
thanks
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1845

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FedCom doesn't have campaign rules, that's something you'll have to decide on yourself. From my vague understanding the largest fleet in any given engagement the SFU has is 13ish, so you are probably already beyond any SFU type of thing anyway.

Good luck fighting that battle, 45 ships!
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Nerroth
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historically, the Andromedans did not make use of captured ships, not least since non-Andro hulls cannot make use of the all-important Rapid Transit Network. Any ships they managed to capture would likely be stripped of anything of value, with the remainder tossed into the scrap heap.

In the case of the Vudar, even other Alpha empires were very reluctant to make use of such ships, due to the high radiation levels on board. (That wouldn't necessarily matter to robotic Andromedan crews, but it would be a factor for species which do not share the Vudar's tolerance for high levels of ionizing radiation.) If you are making use of the Trobrin playtest ships from the OPRB, that species does have the required degree of radiation tolerance to make it work; though Vudar hulls don't necessarily fit well within the standard set of fighting instructions used by warships of the Trobrin Empire.


In terms of fleet composition, there are built-in limits in SFB (and in the optional fleet doctrine rules for FC), but the Andromedans tend to not use those due to their unique technological and logistical setup. Since all of your satellite ships seem to lack displacement devices, it could be argued that they are being stockpiled at a given location (a base or planet or whatnot) for various mortherships to pick up and deposit if required (since the SatShips thesmelves cannot deploy strategically via the RTN). So one could perhaps make the argument that, if the Fleet Doctrine rules were in play, an Andro force made up entirely of units with no DisDevs (not counting bases) could be set up using the "standard" galactic rules - but only if they are on the defensive.


Of course, what your group decides to go with need not be so closely tied to the material drawn from the "Air Force data tapes"; but these factors may be worth considering, depending on how you and your colleagues decide to go about things.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In game, there were a vanishingly small number of repurposed captured ships. You have the hybrid OK6 and TK5, and you have the Hydran D7H. That is about the limit of captured ships in the "official" background history*. The state reason is because even technologies that are "the same" (e.g. phasers, transporters, and warp) are actually quite different in implementation, and it takes the correct parts to keep them working. Because of this, it just wasn't worth taking a singleton ship using alien technology and try to integrated it as a long-term asset into the fleet. They were instead analyzed and either scrapped or returned (depending on the current diplomatic state between the two empires). Occasionally, one would be used as-is for some kind of one-time gambit, but usually not.

But that's the historical background. In your campaigns, you can do what you want. Make up rules for how to do it, and have fun. Just don't expect to see official rules on how it is "supposed to work", as it is outside the game intents.

[*] There are some other random examples of captured ships (e.g. the Ragnar, a Hydran Ranger captured and repurposed by the Klingons), but the ones above are the only "mainstream" ones. I also suppose you could count the various WYN ships, but I ignore them for this. Also, in a way the Romulan Kestrels count, but not really.
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mdauben
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Joined: 15 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Also, in a way the Romulan Kestrels count, but not really.

My memory may be off but in addition to the original hulls didn't the Klingons provide logistical support to the Romulans for the "converted" ships? That would eliminate the normal problem of keeping the "foreign" ships running without the proper spare parts.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't recall if it transferred over from SFB to FC, but Andro Sat ships can't appear without a Mothership.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, the limit is not due to a ship being a mothership or satellite ship, but rather if the ship has a displacement device or not.

(There are satships like the Python and Recon Cobra which have displacement devices, while SFB has a pair of "monitors" in Module R11 which are motherships with no DisDevs.)

But what I was getting at here is that, in the course of a campaign, an Andro player could have a situation where his production facilities (be it a construction BATS from R11, or one of the Desecrators themselves), there may be a surplus of locally-produced satellite ships in storage waiting for "standard" Motherships to come along and pick them up. (Or there could be soem sort of cache stowed away in an out-of-the-way corner of deep space, which serves a similar purpose.)

In such a setup, one could imagine an enemy force stumbling across this cache, and finding themselves having to fight through all of the satellite ships in the absence of a DisDev-equipped Andro warship.

However, such an event would be highly specific to a certain turn of events, and would only be an option if the Andro was the defender (in which case the SatShips have to fight or die).
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdauben wrote:
mjwest wrote:
Also, in a way the Romulan Kestrels count, but not really.

My memory may be off but in addition to the original hulls didn't the Klingons provide logistical support to the Romulans for the "converted" ships? That would eliminate the normal problem of keeping the "foreign" ships running without the proper spare parts.


The Klingons provided both spare parts and some kind of means to manufacture at least some of them in Romulan space. The Romulans were able to keep the Kestrals in-service (with difficulty), even after "Operation Wedge" kept them from direct contact with the Klingons.
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rfeceo
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In our campaign game, we require some research time and some small out-lay of funds - usually 10-20% to convert the captured ship to one useable by the capturing race. It is heavily dependent upon the the degree of alien-ness between the two races.

For instance, the Kzinti in our Early Years campaign (currently Year 92) captured several warp-refitted Carnivon Destroyers and Frigates. They spent two years (2 game turns) researching the conversion of the hull to Kzinti-useful (there was a cost, perhaps 1/2 the cost of building a new frigate). Then, they had the problem of either learning to use the new tech (disruptor cannons, deathbolts, and Heel nippers), or replacing them with Kzinti weapons. The Kzinti chose to replace the deathbolts, discard the heel nippers, and learn how to use/maintain the Disruptor Cannons (the Kzinti already had disruptors, but have so far declined to use them on any of their ships (I think). Then they spent a year (1 turn) refitting the ships with new drone racks and Kzinti life support and sand boxes, and paid a fee of about 10% of the cost of the captured ship in order to make it useable.

Note that this is only to be usable, they cannot build Carnivon designs, or new Disruptor Cannons.

They (and others) are trying to learn how to integrate Tholian (their ally) tech into their ships, but this is hideously expensive in money, but mostly in time (several turns - a dozen perhaps).

Had the Kzinti captured Hydran ships, for instance, the cost in time probably wouldn't be much higher, but the cost to refit to a Kzinti atmosphere, and to re-frame the internal space for Kzinti personnel probably would have been more expensive than just building a new ship of the same general class (ie, cruiser or destroyer).

Had the Kzinti captured a Tholian ship, the advanced tech of the Tholians would have added decades to the research time (though I might have allowed a captured Tholian ship to be used in an emergency as a Degraded Crew and no repair or shields recharge possible, and no use of exotic tech like the web generator.)
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Sneaky Scot
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a series in captain's Log titled "Brothers of the Anarchist" that provided details (in SFB terms) that could be readily made useable for FC. However, I don't recall specifically if there was an Andromedan issue (and all my Captain's Logs are in Gloucester, whilst I am in London during the week).

That might provide you with a rough idea of the types of conversions that could be conducted.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andro conversions were in CL31.
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Carthaginian
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Joined: 13 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see Galactics using another captured Galactic ship... but not so much with Galactics and Andromedians. At least all the Galactic races use technologies similar enough that they can be integrated into ships that other races build- case in point is how the Orions are able to build option mounts with sufficient 'generic' capabilities as to adapt them to any race's weapons.


The rules specifically state that no Galactic race can use Andro technology, so the other player wouldn't be able to capture your ships. Out of fairness, I'd say that the 'technical difficulties' of integrating the Galactic ships into their fleet- even as 'disposable' assets- would be either too complicated or time consuming for the Andros to bother... even if the capabilities were there.

I mean, technically, all naval vessels on planet Earth are 90% similar to each other... but when a navy tries to use another fleet's captured vessels- even as a stopgap- they seldom get good results.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerroth wrote:
(That wouldn't necessarily matter to robotic Andromedan crews, ...)


Side note on something I just noticed ...

We do NOT know that Andromedan crews were robotic. In fact, we have hints that they were not. Yes, the marine units were robots. However, we have no indication what the actual crew were. They could have been anything.
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Steve Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the TOS episode "By Any Other Name", the Kelvans (from the Andromeda Galaxy) had a hundred tentacles which their minds could control individually. They could also assume humanoid form.
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Dal Downing
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Joined: 06 May 2008
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Location: Western Wisconsin

PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Johnson wrote:
Based on the TOS episode "By Any Other Name", the Kelvans (from the Andromeda Galaxy) had a hundred tentacles which their minds could control individually. They could also assume humanoid form.


Got to be careful here. This statement is like saying all Alpha Empires are 3 Legged Methane Breathers because you met a Hydrian first.

We don't know what Andros look like and probably never will because they are suppose to be the boggie man of the main era.
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