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News about the future of the 2500s
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Jean
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Joined: 18 Sep 2008
Posts: 1289

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill, we may not pay our Rangers, but we always do reward our Rangers for demos done. Their work is appreciated; we help them in any way we can.

I'm sorry that doesn't seem to be sufficient for you. Our gift certificate is a thank you to a volunteer, not salary.

We are upfront with our volunteer Rangers about the program. people can read more here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/rangers/index.shtml

Jean
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Bill Stec
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Joined: 25 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jean, I'm not complaining about the compensation ADB gives for demo games (both companies paid in credits by the way, not cash); I was merely explaining why I did the majority of my demo events with Mongoose. $40 in credit buys alot more miniatures than $5 in credit does. I hope that doesn't sound terribly mercenary or anything. Simple economics - who compensates in credits more for the same work? Smile Would you take a job for $5/4 hours, or $40 for the same effort? Smile

I knew what the deal was going in, so it's not as if I was surprised or anything. And I have not quit the Rangers in any case, so if I continue to do demos at all, I'll probably submit demos that are eligible to the Ranger program. Smile


Last edited by Bill Stec on Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Gimp
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Joined: 13 Feb 2013
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Location: Tucson, AZ

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen a demo program that could match what people could make simply working at a real job. Some sound close to minimum wage, but they tend to have strings attached, and rarely account for the extra time needed to do a demo right.

Anyone doing demos should be doing them because they like the game enough to want to actively promote it, and not to make money. If that isn't why they're doing it, they shouldn't be doing demos.

I can undrstand Bill's rationale: if Mongoose gave more credit for the same work toward the same reward product, it would be silly to go for the lesser reward. That, of course, plays out slightly the worse with wear, as Mongoose obviously is harder to work with to get the proper rewards for work done. He had enough integrity to not be trying to get rewards from both companies for the same demos, and liked the game enough to be willing to commit to doing the demos.

Demos rewards are a way for a company to say thanks to volunteers for their hard work promoting a game. With the level of oversight that can be accomplished for such things, and the history of companies being taken advantage of by 'volunteers' looking for freebies, I don't see another way they can do it without it costing too much. I've seen some companies that simply gave a tiered discount in their online stores for the number of demos being done, because they were small enough they couldn't afford to be giving away much product. A lot of other companies have stopped their reward programs.

Demo rewards are a form of paid advetising, but one in which the company would either have to spend even more in resources to verify the work was actually done, or budget those advertising funds as questionable outlay. Not many companies can afford much in questionable outlay.

I remember a time when Tucson had five GW outriders getting free copies of every new product, but I only saw one doing extremely rare demos of any GW games. The rest were 'demoing' with their friends every time they played together. They were the biggest and most obvious problem, but several other games have suffered similar problems.

I appreciate that ADB still has a demo reward program, and that there are volunteers willing to make it as good as I have heard it to be. Kudos to all involved.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, unless you have personally run a business with multiple divergent product lines, CUT MATTHEW SOME SLACK. Nobody here but me knows what he's been going through, and unless you're going to walk in his mocassins, just trust me, it's a lot more complicated than you think. Did Matthew make some mistakes? Sure (so did I, and I thank you all not to review either list) but most of what went wrong was the fault of one of his employees who simply didn't care what he was shipping. It's very hard to have control over someone 3,000 miles (or whatever) away. If my warehouse guy starts shipping crap I can walk back there and discuss things with him and even fire him (or just shoot him, since this is Texas and all) but Matthew didn't have that option. (The Brits have just never been able to control the colonists.)
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am NOW officially collecting ideas as to what the first ADB 2500s will be. Anybody got a request? (I mean, other than finishing the Book One ships.)
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Bill Stec
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:
I am NOW officially collecting ideas as to what the first ADB 2500s will be. Anybody got a request? (I mean, other than finishing the Book One ships.)


Kzinti FFB (4-engined frigate)+stats
Kzinti DD (if sufficiently different looking to warrant it)+stats
Klingon D17+stats
Heavy War Destroyers (if different enough to warrant them, plus may need some additional rules?)

Tugs and Pods (non-Franz Joseph)+stats
Franz Joseph ships (in one squad box?)+stats
Starbase + stats
Monitor or some other Auxiliary if warranted
One of the Rom super heavy cruisers (Killerhawk or other?)

Everything else I can think of needs new rules or is not likely anytime soon (maulers, carriers/fighters, planetary defenses).
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Jean
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole and Matthew Sprange have worked out a deal by which Mongoose Infantry personnel who are still owed Starline 2500 ships for running demos will get their ships.

Your claims need to be submitted to support@starfleetgames.com and will need to be verified with Mongoose personnel before they can be filled. The list of Starline 2500s that ADB has available is here: http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=34d8ec72e1e3d47df4e2ae898e957b78&Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=S&Category_Code=17

Demo teams are very important to any company. The members get our games out to a public who may not know about them. Members of a demo team form the nucleus of an excited fanbase. As always, if you want to demo ACTASF (or any other game produced by ADB) and want to learn about ADB's Ranger program and its rewards, go here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/rangers/index.shtml
Be sure to sign up and to get any demos approved in advance.

Jean Sexton
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first: Jean - that's good news.
I've got a considerable amount of credit sitting there. Not too awfully worriedabout it since I would have done the demos anyway - but more minis are a joy!!!

Second: Steve's request for new ships:
Many of the previous suggestions are nice, but will not have rules for their use for another year or two... maybe longer on some of them. [Peladine, ISC, Tugs, Maulers, etc]
If we're being reasonable about it, there are a couple of choices that come to mind.
1) The Franz Joseph Designs ships.
these require no new rules..
the components are already in the CAD model, they just need re-arranging...
They are Federation ships, which I've been told are the biggest sellers.
*** Just make the gang molds with more DDs than DNs and Tugs. And sell the DDs and CAs in singles (or 2 or 3 ship squadrons) for greater sales potential.

2) Battleships for the existing emipres.
The Feds have one nad a 3D render of the B-10 was posted.
Battleship stats could be added to a Captains Log or hte website and the ships themselves need no new rules to play.

3) Round out the Orion Fleet
Adding the rest of the Orion fleet would require no need rules, only stat blocks.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kzinti FFB, DD: Possible, don't seem likely to be huge sellers, but maybe.

HDWs: Well, the Fed exists in 2400, and I just ordered Klngon and Romulan from a sculptor a few days ago.

Tugs/Pods: Never big sellers, but eventually. Maybe we'll do tug/pod rules and battle pods in ACTASF2 (that is, 2.1 not 1.2).

FJ ships: Well, let's see. Tug I mentioned above, DN is done (close enough), CA is done, DD maybe, SC was always a horrible seller.

Starbase: use the 2400. Seriously, it cannot be in scale and bases don't have much detail. Stats, that can be done.

Monitor: I cannot see that being a big seller. Use the 2400.

Rom superheavies: very possible.

Battleships: Fed is done, B10 is floating around somewhere, Romulan might be interesting.

Orions: I had an idea how to distinguish those and want to go back and review that.
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Bill Stec
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to say thank you Steve for your agreement with Matt about the Mongoose Infantry. I'm glad we of the MI weren't left out in the cold as it were.

I will have to take that into account and say sure, I'll run more demos as I can at conventions. I had a hunch that Mongoose would do the right thing, given sufficient prodding. Very Happy

If we are doing Orions, is there any way to correct an issue with them, wherein players seem to pick all phasers, run around using Boost shields and choosing Phasers only as power drain penalty? I have not played Orions yet, but others have said this issue makes them pretty hard to beat.

I expect Tony can comment on this. Something to encourage people to take something in the option mounts besides drones or phaser-1 would be nice. I have held off buying Orions until this got resolved. It might be as simple as an point increase in the ship cost, or some more formal rule perhaps.

As for the Roms, how about one of the conjectural Dreadnaughts like the Megahawk, Omnihawk or Demonhawk? I don't know anything about the Rom BB, but they sure do need more command ships. Very Happy
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Maxtype
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Joined: 19 Jan 2007
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Location: Pueblo West CO

PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would buy multiple FJ-style Destroyers. I can convert one myself to be my Scout.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This suggestion may depend on how the rules for Fast ships are to be handled in the pending rules revision for ACtA:SF; but if there is still to be at least some accommodation making them distinct from their non-Fast brethren, then perhaps some of the other "fast" classes might be worth considering?

The fast light/war cruisers (such as the San Martin-class NLF and the Romulan Fast SparrowHawk) might be the most convenient to work with, since they would be cheaper to add to a fleet points-wise and could be deployed in tandem with the current CFs more readily.

On the other hand, if more light dreadnoughts were to follow the Star Tiger-class DNL into production, perhaps some of their larger brethren like the Romulan King Shrike or Klingon B9 might make things interesting in their own way.

Plus, from a miniature design perspective, I'd be very keen to see how the design traits that make the current FastHawk look distinct from the standard FireHawk might carry over into "Fast-ifying" the SparrowHawk - and ditto for the Fed NLF.

-----

Also, there are a few individual ship classes I wouldn't mind seeing, such as the Fed OCA (which I could then re-purpose as... something else).

-----

Beyond the currently-published empires, I would like to see a new Booster Zero-esque sampler of future ship classes - perhaps using hull types that are light on the amount of new rules needed.

For example, the WYN "fish ships" would be ready to go rules-wise in ACtA:SF terms - which would be handy if the Distant Kingdoms ships were to be done up for waves 2 or 3.

Similarly, the ISC have a few different plasma variants that would not need PPD rules to be done up. Indeed, one could even offer the "playtest" ships without the rear-firing plasma refit, if one wished to avoid dealing with such a rule before whichever future book did the War and Peace empires. Be it "peacetime" hulls like the CL or CAT, or "war" classes like the CW and DW (which have yet to be done for 2400, and so would be "new" ships to do in 2500), there are ways to preview the Concordium without having to jump too far into the faction-specific rules needed to bring the full-scale Echelon to life in ACtA:SF terms. (Perhaps the sample ships could be introduced as "the kind of ships which appeared along the borders of the ISC's Gorn and Romulan borders during the General War", while the full fleet would later be presented as "the ships which undertook the post-war Pacification Campaign".)

Also, if the Seltorians were to be done alongside the Neo-Tholians (something which hasn't been confirmed, though it is a pairing I hope would remain in place for the 2500s), could the OGR and OGD be added alongside them, as a way to help make old galaxy encounters that bit more interesting?

Although, if doing new playtest rules wasn't entirely off the table, could sample ships for the "lost empires" be possible? For example, any preview ISC ships that could be worked up might go well alongside their Paravian counterparts; while a ship or two for the Carnivons would be a way to shake things up for the current Kzintis (and future Lyrans) which are (or will be) in the product line.

And depending on how ambitious one could be with playtest rule suggestions, a Conquistador/Cobra combination would be a great way to show new-to-SFU players that some very different ways of doing things lie in wait for them to be run over by when the time comes...
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill:
Orion phaser boats are on the radar.
I have a way to resolve that by adding ONE word to the existing rules, in one single place only.
Doesn't get much simpler than that - does it?
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerroth wrote:
...other empires...

As soon as we get working rules for:
ESGs
Phaser-Gs
Fusion Beams
Hellbores
Stingers
Web
Web Casters
Web Snares
Web Fists
PPDs
Web-breakers
Shield Crackers
Quatum Wave Torpedoes
Heel Nippers
So... give me til next week. K? Wink
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Nerroth wrote:
...other empires...

As soon as we get working rules for:
ESGs
Phaser-Gs
Fusion Beams
Hellbores
Stingers
Web
Web Casters
Web Snares
Web Fists
PPDs
Web-breakers
Shield Crackers
Quatum Wave Torpedoes
Heel Nippers
So... give me til next week. K? Wink


I was hoping to continue using the kind of playtest threads posted for the current ruleset over on the Mongoose boards once book 1.2 is up and running - but I was trying to note that in some cases, certain ships from new empires don't need any new rules to be done up for them (such as WYN "fish ships", or plasma-variant ISC hulls without the rear-firing plasma refit).

But some of those rules on the list would need to be worked up for book 2 anyway, depending on which fleets will be published there. If we are to get Neo-Tholians, it would feel like a missed opportunity if they weren't to be presented alongside their Seltorian nemeses. Similarly, if the Lyrans are to be done, they might work best alongside the Hydrans, WYNs, and LDR.

Those pairings work well in FC, and in Starmada (which, to be fair, mimics the FC pattern anyway). I'd argue that keeping these rivalries intact in both ACtA:SF and the Starline 2500 range may be worth considering, too. Not least if the 2500-series squadron boxes are still planned to mimic those done up for the 2400s.
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