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alt universe paravian ?
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 10:05 pm    Post subject: alt universe paravian ? Reply with quote

i play ACTA only but am about the start F&E, so ive got some ?s about the alt universe paravians/romulans

when did the paravian contact the romulans ?
when did they start to work together?
do the romulans still get tactical warp from the klingons ?
thanks to anyone who answers
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Unknown, but after Y24 and before Y39. Call it Y36.

2. In the Alt History, fairly early as they hated Gorns, probably Y37.

3. yes.
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steve Cole wrote:


1. Unknown, but after Y24 and before Y39. Call it Y36.

2. In the Alt History, fairly early as they hated Gorns, probably Y37.

3. yes.



thanks, it would be interesting if the paraians had given the romulans tac drive at an earlier time (perhaps to cover the retreat after the sunsnake ?)
this would possably make the romulan economy stronger they would not need klingon ships devloping the eagle style fleet designs onwards
might make for another alt universe c module ? or maybe models.
the stronger economy ,eagle fleet wound make an F&E ALT history scenario come to think about it
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had not thought about that.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you carve out the Klingons, then you are left with two things:
1) The Eagles (and associated ships) still suck.
2) The Hawks (and such) would never be developed as they are based on Klingon technology.

So, what that most likely means is that the Romulans would end up using the Eagles for Early Years, but would then probably make something complete different after that. It is total green-field development. And this applies in any conjectural setting where Romulans get warp early.

The other thing to keep in mind is that it totally changes the power structure. Unless you want to give the Romulans some serious civil wars to slow them down, giving them warp early has very nasty effects on the map. The idea behind the various Carnivon and Paravian scenarios was to change their immediate environments, but keep everything else as similar as possible. If you give the Romulans warp so early that they never have to get Klingon help, then the entire history is probably unrecognizable.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside, there is no reason to tie the Paravians to the Romulans getting warp early. There is the infamous "Gorn Raid". Have that raid fail (don't care why or how) and the Romulans develop tactical warp in the Early Years. (Later than everyone else, but still early.) Even with their late start, they get it way early enough to cause lots of problems.

I have always wanted to see this alternative universe explored.

What happens immediately after they get tactical warp isn't that hard to come up with. Warp powered Eagle ships. Two generations of Early Years ships; the first based on sublight ships, the second *probably* just further refinements. But once they hit Y120 or so, all bets are off. Having already reached the design limits of the Eagles, they would try something new. What that new would be is totally unknown. I, for one, would love to see those possibilities explored, and have asked for them since Module Y1 came out. Maybe having other voices ask would help things along.
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

good points mjwest
my point is that a change of power for the romulans is what wound make it interesting
will they fight in the general war ?
would thay be allies of the klingons or would thay fight them(in general or in the general war)
oh and since the klingons dont sell the romulans those ships then they have a bigger war reserve
plus recall the romulans have to deal with a far more agresive ISC which would deal or tie up some of new power /fleet
and the romulans did come up with the condor dn which kind of proves they can build better ships of the eagle design
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't saying that the Romulans wouldn't be able to build better ships. I am simply saying that without a Klingon influence, they won't be the Hawks. What they would be is wide open.

As for the other questions, who knows? That is part of the fun of building the alternative universe.
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah my mistake sorry
most races in SFB seem to stick to a design form (except maybe hydrans? or the feds but thats several fleets coming together in the early years ) that being the case i think the romulans would stick to the basic eagle form
(and i think it would be nice to see a fleet of minis or counters for that matter of the eagle design)
besides the eagle from is the one show on tv and if ADB were to do anything like this they might want to keep the look
i agree the more i think of this alt version the more i would like to see something done with it . still i realy dont know enough about SFB FC FE , to do anything perhaps someone could run with it
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a practical matter, you can't change the number of planets on the F&E map so you cannot "increase" the Romulan economy to account for some effect (that I don't agree would be there anyway).

As for "something other than hawks" I would tend to demure. I don't think anyone would buy a whole set of 50 "ships the Romulans would have builtif they had been influenced by the Paravians not the Klingons." A few might like to see them, but as they're going to be the same technology just rearranged patterns of boxes, I'm not sure that they're needed. They might not have developed modular ships just standard variants, but you would still have a "Parahawk" war cruiser and it would still have the same boxes as the SparrowHawk (maybe two or three less since you would not have the "last built = best built syndrome" working for you).
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alternate history #3 in Module C6 has the Romulans in that timeline develop tactical warp on their own, rather than get it from the Klingons in Y159. (There are no Kestrels or Hawks in that version of events.)

It should be noted that alternate #3 assums that the Paravians had been colonizers from the outset, while alternate #1 is based on the idea that Marengo Firecloud Wildfeather (the founder of Wingatha) had more gradually persuaded his fellows to take up the concept. So the tone of each timeline is quite different.


Also, rule (6WA.554) from the prototype F&E scenario in CL48 states that some of the "SparrowHawk" counters one would use are in fact Eagle-series designs. Would that mean the scenario is intended to cover alternate #3 rather than #1?

(Come to think of it, there are no Kestrels on the Romulan OOB in that scenario either.)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RiftSinger,

They could keep the "Eagle" form, but it would need to be beefed up to increase the number of internal systems to more effectively compete with their competition. Or they could do something really cool. I dunno.

Steve,

Good point on the miniatures thing. That pretty much puts the nail in the whole thing. Sad Perhaps the internals can indeed be rearranged to pursue different objectives, but point is taken. I would imagine such ships to be more Pl-R focused, though. (I.e. Royalhawk instead of Firehawk. Maybe with a Pl-R based CL/CW.)

Regardless, like I mentioned above, the Romulans don't need the Paravians. They just need the "Gorn Raid" to fail.
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steve cole
well you of course know better than me what would sell to the SFB FC F&E players and since i have a fleet of 2500s for my ACTA romulans i surpose i dont need any more (even if the klingon ship some how look wrong to me but not the hawks i think its the angles )


nerroth
ah it seems someone ahead of my thinking least for F&E . as ive just got my F&E stuff in the post today i only skimmed the stuff in log 48

mjwest
definatey agree would have to beef up the Eagle form which what i was thinking sorry i dont think i was clear on that,pity about the minis still never say never
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riftsinger
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Steve Cole"]As a practical matter, you can't change the number of planets on the F&E map so you cannot "increase" the Romulan economy to account for some effect (that I don't agree would be there anyway).

just read this again for the increase i was thinking that romulan freighters would also get get a boost in warp speed there by increaseing commerce and boosting the romulan economy . i understood the romulans did,t have many "higher warp" freighters and thought without reading F&E that would be a factor. so parhaps my bad if its not
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see the new Romulan ships that far out of bounds for a Paravian based warp gain.

While the new ships were certainly influenced by the Klingons, the modular concept is one of the hallmarks of Romulan innovative thinking in ship design. Outward structure may have shifted with Paravian influence, but not necessarily enough to justify completely new ship designs.

It isn't just thinking about product potential, it's also thinking about design philosophy. The Romulans have a more limited economic base simply because of their position in space. They are in a planet poor area, so modular ships that make maximum use of available resources through their modularity would still be a very good move.

Having modular parts attach on the outer edges of the ships would be a solid design concept simply because it would make changes easier with less in the way. It would also allow a greater possibility of modules being functional when paired on different core hull designs.

While earlier access to warp technology would be a boon to the Romulans, it would not necessarily have a major impact on the territory the Romulans have for gaming. With the Romulans gaining warp technology from the Paravians, the Gorn would certainly not sit still and do nothing about it. The Gorn could easily become more militant toward the Romulans, attempting to stiffle their growth without going to the lengths they did with the Paravians.

In the end, it could be fun to play with earlier Romulan new series ships, but it does not have to mean a complete redesign of their fleet to be playable. The overall technology curve shifts, but not so far as to destabilize the game.
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