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Same-Hex Fighters and HET?

 
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Finman
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Joined: 09 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:22 am    Post subject: Same-Hex Fighters and HET? Reply with quote

Ran into an interesting one in today's game. Klingons vs. Hydrans 450 points. I had a D5 which was going speed zero and had three Stingers that had entered my hex on Impulse 8 of the last turn on the #4 shield. I plotted an HET on impulse one to turn my #1 (fresh) shield to them, and the Stingers declined movement. (Neither one of us left the hex.)

The question was, "do the Stingers still have a shot at my #4 shield?" we discussed it and looked in the rules, as well as the "same hex combat" document from ADB but couldn't find anything. Does anyone have a rules reference on this?

Note: I would have had no issues if the Stingers had moved out of my hex to 'get' back into the #4 shield, and my friend thought they could HET in the same hex to maintain the facing in the hex. We ended up playing it as they could maneuver to my #4 shield without leaving the hex, but would really like an answer in case it comes up again.

Thanks,
Finman
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'official' description of how "same-hex" combat (compete with illustrations) can be found here:

Same Hex Combat Example
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Finman
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad,

Thanks - we had already read that, but it doesn't address what happens when two objects which are already in the same hex has one that HETs to a new facing, and no one leaves that hex.

The closest I could extrapolate would be to "pull" the Stingers back to their prior hex to determine shield arcs. (since the D5 was 180 degrees from it's original facing).
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe the rules are that you do indeed base facing off where you last were before entering the same hex, no matter how long ago.

So The HET would have changed the stingers from being #4 to #1. Both ships are still in the same place as they were, the klingon is merely facing a different direction, hence a different shield.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is correct. As long as the ships remain in the same hex, their relative shield facing never changes. The only way to change that relative facing is to leave the hex and re-enter the hex.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJ,

I'm confused now.

You said it was correct, but...

Your statement is the opposite of what seems to be the consensus prior to your post.

Could you clarify again if units are in the same hex and one unit HETs, the shield facings don't change?

That seems to defy logic. Assuming both units are facing the #1 shield, and one HETs, logic would suggest that they are no longer facing head-on, but more of a T-bone (assuming the HET was only 60-120 degrees).

If instead both units are still facing the #1 shield, then the non-HETing unit must turn to a parallel course, get in front of the other unit, and turn to face the HETing unit again. That seems to be a lot of "movement" and would not be consistent with the same maneuver at range 1.

That's my litmus test when I run into an issue at range 0 that the rules don't quite cover. What would happen at range 1? The answer to that tells me how to handle range 0.

In the case of a HET, at range 1, the shield facing changes. Therefore, at range 0, the shield facing should change also.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said that the relative shield facings don't change. Obviously, if you HET, the specific shield facing changes, but the relative positions do not change.

Let's give an example, since I apparently suck at the English language. We have a D5 and a CM in the same hex. When they entered the hex, they were facing #1 shield to #1 shield. To pick another metric, using the hex letter symbols, the D5 is in direction F from the CM and the CM is in direction C from the D5. The D5 now executes a 180 degree HET, so that its #4 shield is facing the CM. The D5 has changed its heading, and now has a new shield directed toward the CM. However, their relative shield facings have not changed, as the D5 is still direction F from the CM, and the CM is still direction C from the D5. If the CM were to perform a 180 degree HET, too, then both ships will then be having their #4 shields pointed at each other. But their relative positions still have not changed. And their relative positions will never change until at least one ship leaves the hex.

So, no, I have not said the opposite of the others, but have instead reinforced it. I probably should have said "relative positions" instead of "relative facings" or whatever. But, no, I have not said the opposite, but rather the same thing.

To get the term "shield facing" out of the response, if the D5 is in direction F from the CM, the D5 will always be in direction F from the CM until one of the two ships leaves the hex, irrespective of how many HETs or turns or whatever are made within that hex.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to remember having exactly this argument years ago on this forum as well, as it made no sense when I was reading the rules. The language used is plain wrong, and leads to confusion.

So if I have someone 100 yards to my left that is a relative position, 'My left' is the stated direction. If I turn 90 degrees and the relative position stays the same then he is still 100 yards to 'my left'. If he isn't then the relative position has indeed changed, he is no longer 100 yards to my left.

If his position is off 'my number 4' and his relative shield facing does not change then he is still off 'my number 4' after a HET as well. The stated reference point is shield number. So if he is off number 4 then he remains off number 4 all the time.

It is actually their compass bearings that do not change. If he was direction C to me then after my turn he still direction C to me. Indeed this is the very wording you yourself end up having to use in order to explain the rule. Direction C isn't a shield facing, it has nothing to do with shields.

Quote:
if the D5 is in direction F from the CM, the D5 will always be in direction F from the CM
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Sgt_G
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it this way: you're facing North, and the fighters, behind you, are to your South. After you turn around, the fighters are still South of you, but as you're facing South, so they are now in front of you.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the old days, fighters could use their movement to locate to another shield vs leaving the hex. Doubt that will ever carry over into FC though.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This issue has come up so often. And what is really interesting are the reactions both of those who don't get it and those who understand it so thoroughly that they can't understand why others don't see it.

One suggestion someone had a long time ago was to use a separate small map with 7 hexes (1 surrounded by the other six adjacent). When they dealt with same-hex combat, they put markers on the smaller map to show the directions the ships entered the same hex to help keep everything straight.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJ,

Thx for the clarification. We obviously were speaking past each other.
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liquidsky
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relative means Relative to the map.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
In the old days, fighters could use their movement to locate to another shield vs leaving the hex. Doubt that will ever carry over into FC though.

The SFB rule is (J4.52) Close Combat Maneuvering. Against ships it required the use of an HET. Basically, it said that if a fighter was already in the same hex as a ship, it could use an HET in that hex and then pick which of that ship's shields the fighter was facing.

A corresponding rule does not exist within FC. However, I could easily see it being revisited whenever general fighters are considered. (No promises, of course, but I think it would be at least worth the look.)
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