Federation Commander

[Shadow Warrior]

Interesting new game from GMT games. It seems to be FC boiled down to its most basic elements. It's all there... impulse based movement, turn modes, pay as you go energy allocation, directional shields. The counters themselves double up as the SSD... they are large (2") laminated counters you mark on with a dry wipe pen.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/145976/talon

Play out a 20 ship fleet action in 90 minutes.

An SFU version of this would be most cool indeed!

[A88mph]

I haven't play either yet, but don't they already have a SFU game like this with A Call To Arms?

[Shadow Warrior]

[Steve Cole]

"Talon is like FC boiled down until only the core concepts are left."

Sounds very much like ACTA, in fact, exactly like ACTA and exactly like Starmada.
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The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander

[Shadow Warrior]

I explained myself poorly. It is like FC boiled down until only the core mechanics are left. I don't think I would say that ACTA and Starmada are mechanically the same as FC (or each other for that matter).

Anyway, if you like FC, you will probably like Talon as a pleasant enough beer 'n' pretzels alternative if half your group does a no show on games night.

[Mike]

I watched 2 of the Talon videos and my take on it is it is somewhat like what half-size fleet ships would be in FC, but with a movement system and damage system kind of like Starmada.

By half-size fleet ships I mean ships half the size of fleet scale in FC.
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Mike

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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.

[Nerroth]

It sounds vaguely reminiscent of the distinction between "classic" BattleTech and its younger sibling Alpha Strike, though the comparison is by no means exact.

"Classic" BattleTech (which is built around the Total Warfare core rulebook in its current incarnation) uses detailed SSD-esque Record Sheets (see these examples) for its BattleMechs, aerospace units, and so forth.

Alpha Strike, on the other hand, uses a set of more abstracted and distilled rules and Unit Cards, which trade in some of TW's finer granularity in exchange for an increased speed of play. (The AS Unit Cards are based on those originally designed for use in the BattleForce game system, but spun out into a more miniatures-oriented setup.) For example, this is what the famed Timber Wolf Prime looks like in AS terms.

If I recall correctly, turns in AS are meant to represent approximately 3 turns' worth of TW play; while the streamlined rules and options allow for faster and/or larger engagements to be played out. And while AS has hexless play as a default, it does still include a hex-based option.


There is no exact comparison between the various tactical options in the SFU and those in the BT series - but it might still make for a useful case to compare and contrast with.
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion

[Mike]

I thought we were discussing Talon.
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Mike

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Sandpaper gets the job done, but makes for a lot of friction.

[Nerroth]

The point I was trying to get at is to see if there is room in the SFU for a game system which went further in terms of abstraction than Fleet Scale FC, but which did so using game mechanics that were more closely related to FC (and SFB) than those in the two-and-a-half third-party game systems which have presently been called upon.

Since Alpha Strike is still "related" to Total Warfare, albeit at a much greater remove than there lies between FC and SFB, it seemed like a fair comparison to the setup which is being proposed for a would-be SFU adaptation of Talon (despite it still being a third party game system).

Alternatively, if a Talon collaboration was a non-starter for whatever reason, would there be room for an "in-house" game system that maintained some of FC's game mechanics, yet which boiled the ship displays down to a broadly equivalent level?
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
FC LMC Discussion

[ericphillips]

Talon is cool. The designer did Space Empires 4x which is a very good 4x game that can play in two hours, which is a mighty feat. Talon looks cool. The weapons are very SFB/FC inspired, and it uses an impulse system. I'll probably get it and leave it on my shelf like so many things.

Should there be an SFU version. IMO, probably not.
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"I could have been an adventurer like you, but I took an arrow to the knee."

[koogie]

I just picked up Talon recently and it is fantastic. Having played SFB, Fed Com and Starmada, I feel Talon comes much closer to capturing the core mechanics of the game. The designer has played SFB and it is obvious he had a good understanding of what made SFB a great starship game while leaving out the tedious details that slow things down. The production values are outstanding, and having all the information on a two inch counter instead of an SSD, energy form, and miniature/counter is pure genius. This game begs for an SFU version.

[DoggieMon]

Make it happen ADB.

[Steve Cole]

So we should "make it happen" instead of what? Which long-wanted product wanted by large numbers of people do we cancel or delay to do something only a few people have even mentioned?

If whoever did Talon wants to talk to us I'm all ears -- but I'm not going to go ripping off their game system. Nor am I going to take a year to learn their game system well enough to rip it off competently. If they want to do an SFU game they can call me, but outside designers have an annoying habit of ignoring instructions that we cannot legally print the game if it doesn't conform to SFU. (That is why Fed Admiral is taking so long. The designer ignored that instruction and after he refused to do so I basically had to do the game over for him. I don't need another project like that.) From what you guys say I have an inkling of hope they could do so.

Just personally I feel (the way I play) that having everything on a two-inch counter that I have to lean over the table to read is very clunky compared to a token counter that marks position and ID while I have the actual ship card in my hand and easier to read, but that's just me.

Anyway, if Talon wants to talk to us I would assume they would have by now. Maybe they thought we'd slam the door in their face? Well, not so far. The door is open.
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The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander

[koogie]

SVC,

I play the way you do too, for the last 30 years. That way doesn't work very well with gamers today or for me do to time constraints. Talon (and an SFB version) is a game my wife and kids will play. They will never play SFB/Fed Com/Starmada/ACTA. The designer that did this game (and Space Empires 4X, another game that could easily be adapted to an SFU version) knows SFB, it is obvious from the game.

There are 12 pages of rules. It took me minutes to learn.

The 2 inch counters scream for counter packs the way Fed Com uses ship card packs. Print one and players will by several of each as reinforcements. While it sounds fiddly, having the info on the counter works suprisingly well. It is like looking down at a tactical display. No more binder full of SSDs and energy allocation forms to sort through constantly to see the status of your ships to find that phaser-3 in your fleet that you had not fired yet. No more having to stop the game to ask your opponent which weapons he has fired and having to keep track of all that stuff. All there on the board for all to see at all times. No more half hour set ups or energy allocations, more action.

I'll put it to you this way, I have never bought another game outside of the SFU my entire gaming life (30 years). I recently bought both Talon and Space Empires 4X and have been enjoying them both immensely. They are that good. I haven't played an SFU game since as much as I would like to (I don't have the 3-4 hours required for a game).

This is the version of SFB I have been looking for that Starmada, ACTA and Fed Com did not deliver (to me).

Should you stop the next product to do this? My answer without hesitation is "yes" (again, 30-year SFB guy here). Module R13 or SSJ3 or whatever
no longer interest me, and I have bought every module. I also did not buy CL #53, despite buying all 52 other issues. That is telling. To be honest, nothing ADB is doing these days is holding my interest in the SFU. I don't think I'm alone. I don't want it to be that way. I want to give you my money. But you are not putting out anything I want to buy anymore.

I'll see if I can contact the designer to give you a shout.

[Steve Cole]

While extremely dubious if there is any more than a tiny number of interested people (FC did the job for the 99%) I won't hang up if they call.
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The Guy Who Designed Fed Commander