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Two on one
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:14 pm    Post subject: Two on one Reply with quote

Does anyone have any general advice for a situation where two smaller ships take on a larger one?

How does one deal with the inevitable alpha strike that takes out one of your ships?

I was playing Orions against Klingons last night and I was really at a loss to see what options I had against him other than trying to stay at range and use photons against him until I had a shield down or low enough to punch through
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sinister
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a total newbie but I would think maybe getting the large ship to follow one of your ships at long range and then close in from behind with the other. Make him unload from far away, less damage with phasers and not overloaded photon strikes. You should get more shots than him. Maybe the distance game is good?
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Darkbridger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 65
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two smaller ships should be more maneuverable. Keep your speed high, get behind him and then unload on the rear or a rear quarter shield. Splitting your ships up is very risky... if one gets crippled, you'll be in even bigger trouble.
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terryoc
Captain


Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1378

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkbridger has it... Operate both ships as one single ship.

Any Orion should be able to get in behind a Klingon. Double engines, keep your speed high, use slips and decelerations to shrink your turning circle. Be careful of his "six o'clock phaser hose", a D7 can fire all of its phaser-2s along the rear centreline.

If he performs a high energy turn to bring guns to bear, just use EM and at everything but point-blank range you should avoid most of the damage (note that Orion stealth stacks with Evasive Maneuvers, conferring a total +3 penalty on direct fire weapons).
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks

I'll give that a try next time
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sinister
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkbridger wrote:
Two smaller ships should be more maneuverable. Keep your speed high, get behind him and then unload on the rear or a rear quarter shield. Splitting your ships up is very risky... if one gets crippled, you'll be in even bigger trouble.


are you saying keep them in the same hex?
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Darkbridger
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 65
Location: AZ

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sinister wrote:
Darkbridger wrote:
Two smaller ships should be more maneuverable. Keep your speed high, get behind him and then unload on the rear or a rear quarter shield. Splitting your ships up is very risky... if one gets crippled, you'll be in even bigger trouble.


are you saying keep them in the same hex?


There's no weapon currently that targets a hex instead of a ship, so there's no reason NOT to keep them in the same hex. In fact, the only weapon that functions sort of this way is the ESG, and for that you DO want to be in the same hex to divide the damage between ships. However, your opponent's maneuvering might make staying together tough at times. You should keep your ships close early on when you're facing forward arcs. Once behind him, you'll have more breathing room.

The key is being able to fire on the same shield with both ships. That doesn't have to occur on the same Impulse, but keeping the ships in the same hex makes it more likely. The attacks will still be treated as two separate (at least) volleys regardless, since the fire comes from two ships.

If you split too far apart, you risk inviting your opponent to chase one while you follow with the other. This is usually a difficult thing to pull off, and almost certainly fatal on a fixed map with an experienced opponent. Dividing your fire between two shields gives your opponent more time to cripple one of your ships.
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3463
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest thing you have to keep in mind in a straight-up two on one fight is that the two ships cannot ever split up. If they do, they are probably both dead.

I know this was said above, but it cannot be stressed enough. I have had several one on two fights before, and every time the two split up, they died.

The other thing you will need to do as the smaller ships is make sure both ships fire on the same shield. While this is still two separate volleys (and therefore separate reinforcement), you have to hit the same shield to get enough damage through. If this means you have to keep both ships in the same hex, so be it. One of your ships is going to be combat ineffective after the first pass. You need to make sure you did significant damage on that pass.
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TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
The biggest thing you have to keep in mind in a straight-up two on one fight is that the two ships cannot ever split up. If they do, they are probably both dead.


My experience is different..though it was Feds who had the best success, and it was at fleet scale (the only scale I play at)

The advantage of having two ships and splitting them up, is that in the mid-to end game, there should be no way your opponent can turn that he is not exposing a weakened or downed shield. If you are just going to keep them in the same hex, may as well take a single ship.

You may want your fist pass to have both alpha strikes hit the same shield, but after that, split up, hit your opponent from two directions, bracket him with seeking weapons, make it so that no way he turns he's taking fire on weak/down shields.

You will most likely lose one ship, but it should be aclose game
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3463
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJolley wrote:
The advantage of having two ships and splitting them up, is that in the mid-to end game, there should be no way your opponent can turn that he is not exposing a weakened or downed shield. If you are just going to keep them in the same hex, may as well take a single ship.


I am talking about the beginning game.

The strategy of the big ship is really, really simple. You have to take one of the small ships out of the fight in the first real pass. (If you play a sniping game, then fine. Eventually, someone is going to close to dish damage.) If the two small ships split up in the beginning, your job is easier. Rush one and remove it. If they stay together, then you have to take the damage and take one out. Either way, your first pass has to remove one of them.

In the situation you describe, the big ship has already lost. If the big ship finds itself facing two functional small ships after already taking real damage, the big ship needs to immediately leave.
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Vanessa
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 230

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Two on one Reply with quote

pixelgeek wrote:
Does anyone have any general advice for a situation where two smaller ships take on a larger one?

How does one deal with the inevitable alpha strike that takes out one of your ships?

I was playing Orions against Klingons last night and I was really at a loss to see what options I had against him other than trying to stay at range and use photons against him until I had a shield down or low enough to punch through
Is that you, Zac? Very Happy Playing what I sent. =)
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pixelgeek
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Two on one Reply with quote

Vanessa wrote:
Is that you, Zac? Very Happy Playing what I sent. =)


Indeed it is.

I've been trying to convert some of the local Starfire and SFB players and we had a game last week that involved me attempting to take out a single Klingon vessel with two Orion ships

No fun for me Sad

Alpha strikes are very hard on Orion Cruisers.
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Vanessa
Site Admin


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 230

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Two on one Reply with quote

pixelgeek wrote:
Vanessa wrote:
Is that you, Zac? Very Happy Playing what I sent. =)


Indeed it is.

I've been trying to convert some of the local Starfire and SFB players and we had a game last week that involved me attempting to take out a single Klingon vessel with two Orion ships

No fun for me Sad

Alpha strikes are very hard on Orion Cruisers.
lol...I'm sure some of our players here can give you some help... Very Happy
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TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

If the two small ships split up in the beginning, your job is easier.


It depends on the ships, race, and distance they start from each other

If they start on opposite corners and can't support each other, then yea.

If they start 5-10 or so from each other..then maybe not..it all depends on the ships involved, how much crunch power they have, are they mainly direct-fire ships or seeking weapon ships, etc.

Take a Fleet Scale example: Klingon C-7 vs 2XFed DD's. 110 points each. If the Feds start 5 or so apart and go 16, the Klingon is going to get 2 OL Photons and 2-3 Phaser-1's on each of 2 shields..more than enough for each to punch through and do moderate damage. Combined that would be enough to cripple (or come close to crippling) the C-7. The C-7 will more than likely kill one DD.

One undamaged Fed DD is a match for a crippled or heavily damaged C-7. Throw in 'undamaged' and the fact that the Klingon has 2 downed shields, and the edge goes to the Smaller ship.

I've found that that scenario plays out very very close and can go either way on the roll of a couple weapons on either side.

Played it with the Feds acting as a single ship, and separated. Depending on the opponent (as always) the separated ships gave the Feds a bit more flexibility and they tended to do better than when they acted as a single ship.

Gorns? Kzin, Roms? Totally different beasts..who knows..haven't played enogh 2-on-1 with other race combos.
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are good ideas for the two smaller ships to try against one bigger ship. What about advice for the one bigger ship against two smaller ships? Which would be the best course of action if both smaller ships stay together (either in the same hex or very close):

1. Concentrate fire on one ship to take it out and then go after the other with whatever you have left?

2. Split your fire between both smaller ships?

Even the split fire option has a fine toon option:

a. Use heavy weapons against one of the ships and phasers against the other?

b. Split heavy weapons and phasers between both smaller ships?

What are the recommendations of experienced FedCom players?
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