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Two on one
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toastie
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pick the largest one you can destroy with your alpha strike, and kill it. Assuming it was equal point value to begin with, you've now halved your opponent's firepower, and it was unlikely they halved yours with their strike. If you split fire, you run the risk of just doing just shield damage to one or the other, or worse, not scoring any internals to either one at all. Meanwhile they dropped a shield on you, and did internals.

If you can't kill a single ship in one strike, you still need to hurt one badly so that it goes away to make repairs while you tackle the other one. At least, hopefully you did enough engine damage so that you can pull away from it and fight the other ship 1 on 1. You can use shield repair and shield rotation to bring the downed shield up to strength. With less power and weaker shields, small ships can't benefit from this as much.

One advantage the large ship has in this situation is repair capability. If you lose a weapon, you can repair it in one turn. Most likely the smaller ships don't generate enough points to repair a weapon or power in one turn. So if you can get in multiple weapon hits on a small ship, he won't be able to repair them all before at least 4 turns pass.
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junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did a 3 Gorn (me - BDD, 2xDD) vs. 2 Klingon (opponent - D7, D5W) fight not too long ago. Fleet scale, most of the comments here apply to the fight.

First, be aware of the small details that turn the smaller ships into "not just half of a big ship". For instance, our fight was in Fleet Scale, and due to the way that "downsizing" plasmas is handled, each of my ships had two Plasma-F torpedoes - a pretty nice punch at close range.

Second, EM tends to be a fairly good bargain on smaller ships. It's cheaper on small ships, and can help a lot in reducing the incoming damage (critically important on the smaller ships). Just remember that you can't fire while under EM, that it doesn't work against seeking weapons, and that you need to declare that you're dropping EM a couple of impulses before your intended firing point.

Third, hope that your ships are more maneuverable. Unfortunately, that's not always the case. For instance, the notorious Gorn turn modes meant that my DDs were even less maneuverable than his much larger cruisers. But my BDD (which has the same turn mode as the Klingons) was able to survive the rearming phase while several hexes away from the D7 by careful maneuvering.

The smaller ships CAN win. You just need to approach the battle the same way you would any battle - by focusing on your strengths and focusing your fire. And resign yourself to the fact that even if you win, you're almost guaranteed to lose one of your ships.

In my case, I lost two of my ships while the Klingon didn't lose any.

BUT, my last destroyer was just finishing repairing a weapon, and had enough power to move at a good speed and arm his phaser, while both Klingon vessels were reduced to a couple of boxes and Frame spaces. So my opponent acknowledged that if we played for a few more turns, he was probably going to lose both of his ships.
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toastie
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to post a contradiction to my own advice. As part of the demo derby that Aresian ran on Memorial day, we did a Fleet Scale 2 vs. 1. Aresian had a Gorn BC vs a Kzinti FF that I ran, and a Fed FF that was run by a 3rd player.

Based on an earlier game where my Fleet Scale Fed FF was trashed by a single F-torp from a K5R, it was pretty obvious to me that fleet scale frigates cannot survive a single hit from a plasma torp unless the torpedo is run out to little power. We attepted to keep the BC at medium range, while we chucked drones and sniped.

In this case, it was beneficial to Aresian for him to split his Plasma launches on turn 2. As we had attempted to run from him, he had us pinned in a corner of the map. If he had concentrated his launches on one ship, the other ship would have easily escaped. As it was, he launched the Plasma F at my Frigate, and the S at the Fed. Only through the judicious use of an HET and accelerations were we able to escape, with the Fed taking the Plasma S on the #3 shield after it had been run down to 8 points. The BC's phasers were not available, having been used for drone defense.

Unfortunately we were unable to complete the game, but it would have been an interesting ending. We had dropped 2 shields on the BC through drone hits and sniping, while the Fed was missing half the #3 shield, and I was missing half the #5. This may sound like a victory for the frigates, but at this point, my ship was almost combat useless, as I was out of drones. All I could do was run into range 8 and snipe with the disruptor. This would leave the Fed at 1 on 1 with the BC, which probabaly isn't going to end well for the Fed.

Anyway, so I'll have to go back on my original post somewhat, and declare: "It depends on the situation."
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aresian
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Hermitage, TN

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this particular case it did make sense to split fire. Particularly with the weak shield strength of the Fed and Kizinti FFs in fleet scale. And if I hadn't forgotten about the HET it would have been a glorious day for the Gorn. But in this case it was like trying to herd cats. Toastie did a great job running from those plasmas. And the effect would have been the same firing on one ship as they just flat outran the Plasma F. I might have been better to use carronades, but I've got to sit down and reread those rules.

That was the first day I'd ever played a race with plasmas. In SFB I avoided them like the plague because there were so many layers of how to use them and how to defend against them. In FC I find them a little frustrating (and that comes from not using seeking weapons much before), but definitely interesting. Darn you SVC. Now it keeps getting harder and harder to pick a favorite race.
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TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget about bolting. Can be nasty if you are trying to squish frigates. Fire both plasmas as bolts, 1 should hit, at least, on average, which will drop the shield and do some internals. Fire a barrage of P-1's at the same time and cripple the little bugger
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junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toastie wrote:
Unfortunately we were unable to complete the game, but it would have been an interesting ending. We had dropped 2 shields on the BC through drone hits and sniping, while the Fed was missing half the #3 shield, and I was missing half the #5. This may sound like a victory for the frigates, but at this point, my ship was almost combat useless, as I was out of drones.


It's probably also worth noting that shields on smaller ships don't take much for a cruiser-sized vessel to knock down. This particularly applies in Fleet Scale, where a single Phaser-1 (quite common on Gorn vessels, which are impossible to approach without being in the firing arc of at least a couple of them) is almost enough to single-handedly knock down a shield. With no drones left to tie up his phasers, he probably wouldn't have needed his plasmas to savage your ships (albeit at a slightly slower rate than that allowed by the 50 points of plasma).


Getting back to tactics, though, I think that the single most important thing thing to keep in mind is to figure out beforehand what your rough plan is going to be, and then follow through with it.

If you come up with a bad plan beforehand, then yes, you're probably going to die. But I can pretty much guarantee that if you start second-guessing yourself, you're going to die as well.
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aresian
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 27 Apr 2007
Posts: 39
Location: Hermitage, TN

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="junior]
Getting back to tactics, though, I think that the single most important thing thing to keep in mind is to figure out beforehand what your rough plan is going to be, and then follow through with it.

If you come up with a bad plan beforehand, then yes, you're probably going to die. But I can pretty much guarantee that if you start second-guessing yourself, you're going to die as well.[/quote]

Like all Tactical Guidelines it may not be true 100% of the time, but I'd second this. It's when I start second guessing and scrapping a plan in the middle of an engagement that I find myself hung out to dry somewhere between Plan A and Plan B. Might as well dance with the one that brung you.
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TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
This particularly applies in Fleet Scale, where a single Phaser-1 is almost enough to single-handedly knock down a shield.


You are looking at more like 2+ P-1s to drop a FF shield at Fleet Scale. Most frigates run in the 9-11 point shield range in FS, while an average P-1 does:

Range Damage
    0 6 1/2
    1 5 1/3
    2 5
    3 4 1/3
    4 3 5/6
    5 3 1/2
    6-8 2 1/6


So ate range 0-2 you are looking at 2 P-1's, at range 5 you are looking at 3-ish and at 6-8 you are looking at about 5. That's a heck of a lot of P-1's for Fleet Scale. On the plus side, once you get through the shields, frigates fall apart pretty quick. Even shield leak can be pretty devastating.

About 35 points of damage will vaporize an average frigate. It's generating that much damage at Fleet Scale that is a bit tricky while still being able to move to not be totally out maneuvered by the little beasts.
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toastie
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aresian never got the chance to phaser down our shields much, as he was killing drones at our closest approach, which I think was range 6 to the Kzin and 8 to the Fed. On the first turn, he had used 3 Ph-1s to drop my #5 shield to 2 boxes, but it was a long range shot.
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junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2007 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

toastie wrote:
Aresian never got the chance to phaser down our shields much, as he was killing drones at our closest approach, which I think was range 6 to the Kzin and 8 to the Fed. On the first turn, he had used 3 Ph-1s to drop my #5 shield to 2 boxes, but it was a long range shot.


One of my points, though, was that drone defense wasn't likely to be an issue any longer (at least for the next couple of turns). The write-up notes that the Kzinti FF was out of drones. And if the Kzinti's out of drones, then that means that all of those nasty Phaser-1s aren't going to be tied up in drone defense anymore.
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We had a classic 2 on 1 situation a couple of weeks ago. I had a Fed FF and my partner had a Fed DD while our opponent had a Kzinti BC. As the two weaker ships, we tried to stay together and managed to do so for 2 turns, but then the Kzinti closed and concentrated fire on my frigate. He had done long range damage on my forward shield and had 4 drones headed straight for me, so I turned off.

[At that point, I may have been able to stay with the DD and have him help shoot the drones, but he was a little unwilling to fire any weapons unless he was at almost point-blank range with the Kzinti ship.]

I managed to deal with the drones, but he outmaneuvered the DD and closed with me. I managed to HET and end an Impulse next to his only downed shield, so I unloaded all available phasers into him. He, in turn, blew up my ship. The DD tried to close the distance, but he didn't have much power to spare because he was holding 4 overloaded photons. I had to plead with him to fire before the Kzinti could fulfill his turn mode and veer off to give him a fresh shield. He finally fired and hit with two of the photons along with some Ph-1s. That really slammed the Kzinti down to being somewhat weaker than the DD.

We had to call the game at that point. I thought the DD would destroy the Kzinti when his photons recycled, but the Kzinti player thought he would rally and perhaps get out of it.

It was the classic 2 on 1 duel. One small ship destroyed...the other left to get the job done.
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Mike
Captain


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1543
Location: South Carolina

PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides a 2 on 1 duel situation, does anyone know of a good 3 player scenario in which each player is independent of the others?
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