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F5 vs. TDD
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junior
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Joined: 08 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:20 pm    Post subject: F5 vs. TDD Reply with quote

I played a couple of games last night. Second game was a Fed CL (me) versus a Klingon D5 (my opponent). That match was pretty good, although I ended up getting my head handed to me.

The first match, though, was a Tholian DD (me) versus a Klingon F5 (my opponent). And when we looked at the point values, we were slightly puzzled.

The DD is worth 80 points. The F5 is worth 82 points. And yet a quick comparison between the two ships would seem to suggest some issues with this. The ships on the surface seemed somewhat similar. But the DD has 50% stronger shields. It also has slightly better firing arcs on its Disruptors. And it has what I consider to be a slightly better phaser suite (four ph-1 and 2 ph-3 vs. 2 ph-1 and 3 ph-2). The F-5 has a drone launcher and ADD, but the DD has web snares protecting each side of the ship.

Based on a comparison between the two, the point values seem a bit off. Obviously a thorough comparison with other ships is required to figure out what the points should be. But there's definitely an inequity here.

Any thoughts on what might make the F5 worth slightly more than the Tholian DD?
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing. The Tholian DD is a better ship all around in Fed Com. Usually though, the Thoians are outnumbered
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The point values of several ships have been questioned. From what I've been able to gather by reading a lot of comments from several players, the point values are not necessarily supposed to be an absolute indicator of a ship's real value or worth.

Another aspect of ships that change the complexion of their usefulness is the type of engagement in which they are involved. Some ships fare better in one-on-one duels while others show their finer points when used as support craft in squadrons or larger fleets.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point values are more than just whats in the SSD, its how its arranged, how affective it is against its common counterpart -- (SVC made comments about PVs way back in the mid 80s in reference to the same questions) --

In FC, you dont truely have that historic enemy anymore (some just arent there yet), you end up fighting weapons and tactics just not in the purview of the ship design -- I can only assume SVC is still using that same pattern when he assigns PVs to ships --
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, I have a hard time seeing how the F5 could EVER be better than the DD - or even equal to it, for that matter. That goes for duels, small squadron engagements, and fleet actions.

The ships have nearly identical weapons, with imo what are slightly better firing arcs on the DD. The DD has shields that are over 50% stronger, and has the web snares that make it very resistant to seeking weapon swarms. The only real advantage that the F5 seems to have is a single point of power.

The shields alone (nearly heavy cruiser strength) suggest to me that the DD should be at least 10 points more. Instead, the F5 costs slightly more than the DD.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the massive changes to how drones and WEB work, really hit the F5 in Fed Comm.

In SFB with Scatter pack drones, Type IV drones, etc and no ability to use WEB to stop all seeking weapons, it's a totally different fight.

The Tholians got a major boost in Fed Comm. If you think the Tholians vs Klingons is bad..try Tholians vs any plasma race..EEEK!
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest thing to keep in mind about Point Values is that they are based on the SFB BPV. With the differences in rules between SFB and FC, occationally the SFB BPV will end up being somewhat inappropriate.

So, FC Point Values are a very inexact science. (Not that SFB BPVs don't have their own issues, too.) A few anomolies will occur, and a few mistakes will slip through.

Speaking of mistakes, if the Tholian DD Point Value really is only 80, then that may be one of those mistakes. The Tholian DD BPV in SFB is 86 (when the snares are taken into account) and that should be the Tholian DD's FC Point Value. So, if the Tholian DD Point Value is only 80, that is likely a mistake.

So, would a point value of 86 for the Tholian DD make the picture look better for you?

(Note: This is not a ruling. It is merely an observation. It would have to be confirmed by Steve, with the requisite flogging of the ship card reviewers, before it could be a ruling.)
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike - slightly better. As I mentioned above, I think a good eight points over the F5 would be about right. 27/24 shielding is pretty good on a ship under 100 points.

HOWEVER (emphasis, not shouting), I haven't compared the DD with any other ships. And TJolley makes the point that the F5 isn't doing as well as it did in SFB. So I don't know how much of that difference between the two ships would be from lowering the F5 points (if appropriate) and how much would be from boosting the DD points.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any race that relies on seeking weapons of any kind is at a very serious disadvantage vis-a-vis the Tholians in Fed Comm.

The original Tholians that is..the Neo-Tholians are a different matter with WC and not WEB..go figure..

The Tholians are a very tough nut in FC, no doubt. I haven't figured out any way to deal with them effectively yet, so I usually end up flying them Smile
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if you were talking about Neo-Tholians in FC, but they have the web snare now as well.

There was a question on the NFF about a month ago, as it's the only Neo-Tholian ship that mounts a single snare in squadron scale, as opposed to two.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stupid little NFF!

It never occurred to me to even think about using it's web as a snare, even though I asked for it to have disruptors like the rest of the NeoTholians!

If I had, I would have asked to give it two webs, even though that would have been a slight change from SFB. But, nooo, I didn't even think of the ramifications ...

Mad Embarassed
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junior
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure it'll be fixed in the Captain's Edition of FC.

Wink


/duck

More seriously, any time you convert ships from one game over to another - particularly if the two systems are very similar as is the case here - you're going to have things slip through. We should be grateful that the most problematic issue so far has apparently merely been plasma bolt arcs on fleet scale ships.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
Not sure if you were talking about Neo-Tholians in FC, but they have the web snare now as well.

There was a question on the NFF about a month ago, as it's the only Neo-Tholian ship that mounts a single snare in squadron scale, as opposed to two.


Most Neo's have WC's and not WEB..the NFF being the exception.
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's because Web Casters double as Web Generators - Rule (5M1a). So the Neo-Tholians don't need the Web Generators (except, of course, on the aforementioned NFF).
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
That's because Web Casters double as Web Generators - Rule (5M1a). So the Neo-Tholians don't need the Web Generators (except, of course, on the aforementioned NFF).


But WC's do NOT act as Snares (5M1a), unlike WEB generators do (5M3), so WC's do NOT get the pay 1 point and remove all seeking weapons that impacted on shields 2-3 or 5-6 this impulse ability (5M3).
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