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Question about Laying Webs
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think of it as low-powered generators on the asteroids capable of maintaining a constant strength 0.000000001 web... Wink
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
Kang wrote:
I also wonder what the rules would be if you had two anchor points - can a globular web have more than one anchor point? I assume the concentric webs on the 'wedding cake' map panel are actually separate strands of linear web with corner anchors, not globular webs.


The Wedding Cake/ Three Ring Circus is generally made up of globular webs. The anchors are important because (due to technical details that don't factor into actual gameplay) of the special needs involved in creating a web that can be kept in a low power state for long periods of time. A normal Globular Web will dissolve if not constantly kept powered. The webs around a base are specially set-up so that they can remain intact even when they have only minimal power (although they don't actually stop anything at that level). Otherwise the Tholians would need to re-lay them every time the Klingons launched another base assault (it would be extremely expensive to keep them fully powered all the time).

This is one of those things that's mentioned in SFB, but not really described in detail largely because of the fact that it's more or less irrelevant to actual gameplay.


Ah yes, I remember that. The asteroids have kind of maintenance mini-generators on them, don't they.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few points of clarifiction:

- My first reaction on the "triangular web" is, No. I am pretty sure the intention is for it to have at least one open hex in the middle. However, I will have to think about that some.

- The "wedding cake" around a base are NOT globular webs.

They are, quite definitely, linear web. It is very important to note that just because a web is in the form of a circle (or, because of the hex structure of the map, a hexagon) does not mean it is necessarily a "globular web".

A globular web is a very specific form of web that is anchored to itself. There is only one segment and no true anchors. It is a self-contained entity.

A linear web must have anchors. A linear web may also "bend" at the anchor. This means you could make a zig-zag or whatever, as long as the other rules of building webs are followed. One particular form that is possible is creating a full "circle" with anchors at each point. This is how the Tholian "wedding cake" is built. Those webs are linear webs, even though they are circular in shape.

(Taking a step back from that, I always imagined that globular webs are true circles, but just look like hexagons due to the limitations of the map. On the other hand, a linear web formed into a "circle" really IS a hexagon as each segment must be straight.)

- When a shuttle is transformed into a web anchor buoy, it is forever a web anchor buoy. However, I believe I have ruled in the past that you can recover a web anchor buoy into your shuttle bay (using "tractored landing" rules) for reuse later.

- A single ship may create a globular web in conjunction with a web anchor buoy. Do note that this will take quite a while. When the web is complete, then the web anchor buoy will no longer be a web anchor, as the web is now anchored to itself.

- A given ship with a working web box may lay any number of web hexes or may reinforce a web multiple times using that same web box. The limiting factor in this operation is power, not the web box. Considering that it takes six points of power per hex of web laid, this gets pretty limiting.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so we have established above that you lay web in the Other Functions phase.

However, we played using webs for the first time last night, and we found it more convenient to lay the web as the ship moves. We had a Thol CA laying 3 hexes of web per turn [ok, nobody was shooting at it Smile] and found that it was easier to remember where it was laid. As long as the web is not reinforced at all, this presents no game play problems.

We have some more questions though.

1) Can a stationary ship lay web in the hex it is in? The rules seem to imply that the web is laid as the ship enters the hex - which incidentally is also at odds with the 'Other Functions phase' ruling above.

2) A web passes through a hex adjacent to a planet. A Web-equipped ship is landed on the planet adjacent to the web hex. Can the ship maintain/reinforce the web from that position, i.e. through the atmosphere? I don't see why not, for myself....

3) Can any Tholian ship create a Web anchor buoy from one of its shuttles, even if the ship does not have a Web generator; for example the standard PC with phaser-3s rather than Web boxes? We played that it could because the rules do not state that you need a Web generator in order to make a Web anchor buoy. Of course, we take it as read that no non-Tholian ship can make an anchor buoy....

4) Do the clarifications in this [entire] thread need to go in the CRUL?

5) Please can someone clarify the difference between a web strand and a web segment?

Thanks guys Smile
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about Laying Webs Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
Basically, a ship may not move more than one hex an impulse while laying web.

Why's that? If it's only power that's limiting, why can't it lay more than one hex per impulse? Unfortunately, that's what we did last night.... Embarassed
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about Laying Webs Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
mjwest wrote:
Basically, a ship may not move more than one hex an impulse while laying web.

Why's that? If it's only power that's limiting, why can't it lay more than one hex per impulse? Unfortunately, that's what we did last night.... Embarassed

Because of the Other Functions thing. Since you can only lay a single hex per impulse (since this occurs in the Other Functions Phase), you cannot move more than one hex an impulse without forfeiting your anchor status.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough. Do you also have any answers for my previous questions above, please?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
However, we played using webs for the first time last night, and we found it more convenient to lay the web as the ship moves.

The laying of web needs to be in the Other Functions Phase to help control the speed at which it is laid. Also, that is the structure of FC Impulses: the actual activity happens at the end of the impulse; only movement occurs in the subpulses.

Quote:
1) Can a stationary ship lay web in the hex it is in? The rules seem to imply that the web is laid as the ship enters the hex - which incidentally is also at odds with the 'Other Functions phase' ruling above.

Yes, it can, within the limits given for anchors.

Quote:
2) A web passes through a hex adjacent to a planet. A Web-equipped ship is landed on the planet adjacent to the web hex. Can the ship maintain/reinforce the web from that position, i.e. through the atmosphere? I don't see why not, for myself....

As far as I can tell, it can. And I don't see any problem with that. The only requirement is that the ship be adjacent (or in) the web hex.

Quote:
3) Can any Tholian ship create a Web anchor buoy from one of its shuttles, even if the ship does not have a Web generator; for example the standard PC with phaser-3s rather than Web boxes? We played that it could because the rules do not state that you need a Web generator in order to make a Web anchor buoy. Of course, we take it as read that no non-Tholian ship can make an anchor buoy....

No non-Tholian ship can create an anchor buoy. Any Tholian ship may.

Quote:
4) Do the clarifications in this [entire] thread need to go in the CRUL?

Where appropriate (i.e. where there is new information), I think it already has been. (Well, except for this post. Smile )

Quote:
5) Please can someone clarify the difference between a web strand and a web segment?

A strand is the whole web. A segment is that portion of a strand between two anchors. If a web strand has only two anchors (one at each end), then the strand has a single segment. If a web strand has multiple anchors, then each pair of anchors defines a segment of that web strand.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How's that for service? Thanks, Mike; you have answered all my questions.

One of the reasons I asked the strand/segment question was that the other night we had a four-hex web, with an anchor in each of the four hexes ie four adjacent anchors in a row, and I wanted to clarify on that basis. The Tholian player had wanted to make the web as tough as possible....Wink
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to necromance this thread but as usual it's relevant and I like to keep all my rules questions on the same subject in the same thread.

1) Is the decision as to whether a web is globular or linear, made when my laying ship turns the first corner and then keeps going rather than trying a 'repeat sideslip' pattern which would have made it linear?

2) A ship is laying a linear web by using the occasional sideslip. It places a Web Anchor buoy in 1008, then moves to 1007 facing A and lays Web there. It then moves to 1006 and lays Web there. Then a sideslip into 0906, where it lays its last Web and then another anchor buoy. Although this web is not a 'repeated' sideslip, it is approximately linear in my view; is this web legal?

3) A non-Tholian ship must 'stop' when it enters a Web hex, and expend extra movement points while 'trapped' in order to escape. Do those movement points count towards turn mode calculations?

4) We have seen above that, 'A single ship may create a globular web in conjunction with a web anchor buoy...... When the web is complete, then the web anchor buoy will no longer be a web anchor, as the web is now anchored to itself.'

So, what happens to the anchor buoy? Can it be recovered and reused even if the Web strength is more than zero, because it's no longer an anchor?

5) I see that the new rules indicate that you can indeed recover an anchor buoy and now you can even use it as a normal shuttle again. This appears to be a change from the old rules where it was 'forever' an anchor buoy. Have I got that right?

6) Did we ever get an answer on the legality of the 'triangular' web?

Thanks!
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terryoc
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can answer some of these.

1. I can't answer.

2. I'd say no, the rules do specify a "repeated pattern" of sideslips.

3. Yes. (asked this one ages ago, this was the answer I got.)

4. Yes, if it's no longer functioning as an anchor, it can be recovered.

5. Yes. But AFAIK, if you de-web-anchor-ise it and use it as a shuttle, then try to use the shuttle as a web anchor again, you'll have to pay the energy to turn it into a web anchor again.

6. I don't know. I think the angles may be too acute (seen from the inside of the web) but don't have the rules in front of me.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terryoc wrote:

2. I'd say no, the rules do specify a "repeated pattern" of sideslips.

They do. But in the process of building such a web, there may well be a time where the pattern is not 'complete'. If I decide to anchor the web at that point, then it should be ok. Also, the sideslips do not have to be immediately consecutive - move, slip, move, slip. It could be move, move, move, slip etc.

For me, thie thing is that it needs to be as linear as possible within the limits of the hex grid.

If the ship in the axample above carried on in the 0906 direction, then that would be a corner and the web would either have to be completed as a globular or not completed at all.

Another question here as well: When can the Tholians start reinforcing a Web? As soon as one hex has been laid, I'd have thought......
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
1) Is the decision as to whether a web is globular or linear, made when my laying ship turns the first corner and then keeps going rather than trying a 'repeat sideslip' pattern which would have made it linear?

Well, at some point you will need to make the decision. Smile

But, yes. Once your web stops being able to be a 'repeat sideslip' pattern, you are committed to making it a globular web. In your example above that would be on the second move after the turn. (I.e. when you turn and move, that could either be a turn or a sideslip. Once you continue straight again, you have irrevocably made it a turn.)

Quote:
2) A ship is laying a linear web by using the occasional sideslip. It places a Web Anchor buoy in 1008, then moves to 1007 facing A and lays Web there. It then moves to 1006 and lays Web there. Then a sideslip into 0906, where it lays its last Web and then another anchor buoy. Although this web is not a 'repeated' sideslip, it is approximately linear in my view; is this web legal?

Yes, that is OK. (Or it would seem so to me.) However, it does set the precident that, if you wish to extend the web, you will need to move in direction A for another two hexes before being able to sideslip again.

You can do a partial sideslip pattern. But you cannot break the sideslip pattern.

Quote:
3) A non-Tholian ship must 'stop' when it enters a Web hex, and expend extra movement points while 'trapped' in order to escape. Do those movement points count towards turn mode calculations?

Yup. You can turn away when your turn mode is fulfilled.

Quote:
4) We have seen above that, 'A single ship may create a globular web in conjunction with a web anchor buoy...... When the web is complete, then the web anchor buoy will no longer be a web anchor, as the web is now anchored to itself.'

So, what happens to the anchor buoy? Can it be recovered and reused even if the Web strength is more than zero, because it's no longer an anchor?

I don't see why you cannot recover the web anchor buoy. As you mention, it is no longer a required web anchor, so you are free to recover it.

Quote:
5) I see that the new rules indicate that you can indeed recover an anchor buoy and now you can even use it as a normal shuttle again. This appears to be a change from the old rules where it was 'forever' an anchor buoy. Have I got that right?

Yes, that is correct. After it is recovered, you may decide to change it back into a shuttle. (Which appears to just be an administrative note. It takes no power or time.)

However, do remember that, as Terry mentions, if you change it back into an admin shuttle, you will again have to pay six points of energy to change it into a web anchor bouy.

Quote:
6) Did we ever get an answer on the legality of the 'triangular' web?

I am going with, "No". While this diminutive form of a "triangular" web can be viewed as being legal, any larger "triangle" shape is illegal. So, I am gonna say that this shape is illegal, too. You must have an open hex in the middle to be a globular web.

Quote:
When can the Tholians start reinforcing a Web?

Depends. For linear web, reinforcing can be done with the placement of the first web hex. For globular web, rule (5M2g-4) specifically states that it cannot be reinforced until the web is completed.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:

I am going with, "No". While this diminutive form of a "triangular" web can be viewed as being legal, any larger "triangle" shape is illegal. So, I am gonna say that this shape is illegal, too. You must have an open hex in the middle to be a globular web.

Is a triangular web illegal? [meaning a globular triangle, I take it?] Why - is it because it has to eb 'oblong' [as in the rules] or more-sided?

Quote:
When can the Tholians start reinforcing a Web?

Depends. For linear web, reinforcing can be done with the placement of the first web hex. For globular web, rule (5M2g-4) specifically states that it cannot be reinforced until the web is completed.


Ah. In that case, then, reinforcing a web that is in the process of being laid will commit it to being a linear web, then?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
Is a triangular web illegal? [meaning a globular triangle, I take it?] Why - is it because it has to eb 'oblong' [as in the rules] or more-sided?

For linear webs (bear with me, I will get to globular in a moment), rule (5M2d-1) says that a given web hex cannot be adjacent to more than two hexes, and neither of those hexes may touch each other. This eliminates the possibility of a three hex web (with anchors, of course), or any triangular shape.

For globular webs, rule (5M2g-3) says that each web hex must be adjacent to two, and only two) other web hexes. This completely eliminates larger triangular webs. The reason is because the hex immediately adjacent to a "point" hex will be touching three web hexes. Ergo, it can't be done. For the three hex degenerate case, I take the precident given in (5M2d-1) (which is, admittedly, for linear hexes), and the overall prohibition of triangular hexes, to say it can't be done, either.

Quote:
Ah. In that case, then, reinforcing a web that is in the process of being laid will commit it to being a linear web, then?

Yes, that would appear to be the case. Smile
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