Federation Commander

An interesting choice might be 2 Orion BCs plus 2 LRs and have all option mounts consist of PL-Fs! You double engines and race toward the stinger force and let them take the range 8 shot if they wish. The goal is to get to range 4-5 and unlease potentially 14 PL-F carronades which will cripple 14 stingers. Your phasers kill the other 4 stingers and maybe do some damage to the mother ships. Then if they have any unfired gatlings/fusions, you HET and run away.

The stinger force has 3 options that I can see:

1) Fire at range 6-8. This should take out 1 LR (but probably not a BC since it has loads of power for batteries). This LR fires its PH1 and probably attempts to bolt its PL-F since it will probably die under the hail of fire. It cripples 1-2 stingers. The remaining ships get to range 4-5 and carronade. Every stinger should be dead or crippled from carronades and PH-1 fire. The Orions then HET and zip away.

2) Hold fire and try and skip the 4-5 range bracket and get to range 3. That would be very hard to do since the Orions are much faster than they are. It would be an interesting test of skill to see if they could pull it off. Even if they got to range 3, it's not completely disastrous for the Orions. They may lose 1 BC or 2 LR or possibly 1 BC and 1 LR, but all fighters should be crippled or dead at this point.

3) Send the mother ships ahead of the fighters. In this case, the PL-F get launched at them at relatively close range and they probably die. The remaining Orions then run away from the fighters and reload.

Against PL-F, evasive maneuvers are of very limited usefulness.

Of course the caveat of this force is that I'm not sure they'd be that good against other races...

This following rules question seems to support my point of view.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... php?t=2092

grr - yes, I hadn't seen that, I sometimes wonder what the point of the latest rulebook was, it seems to cause as much confusion as it was meant to clarify between typos and bits like the above.

Because it's not a stern chase. The stingers are pointed at you, not away from you. The best they can do is decelerate twice which means you make up 4 hexes on the board going 24+1.

Its neither a stern chase nor head on aattcak, In this case it is manouver to avoid a range 8 shot without shooting first and/or being evasive? They are pointed in what way makes sense depending on enemy and opposing tactics. As you charge at 24(+) on turn 1 with mass photons they deploy in a way that allows them to run or attack, they move after you and get a Het per turn. Remember they only have 1 impulse they can't shoot, so you are talking 2 impulses if you want to shoot at 9/10 or 1 impulse if you want evasive at 9.

If you attack them they run, you will not get to range 8 before they turn back to face you (HET if needed) at the point they want, or at the point you give up and turn away. The range will still have closed to the range they wanted, the attacking fleet did that bit for them.

If you turn you are not closing (and not initally pulling away very fast either) then they either attack you or decel to maintain range.

If you HET, you are heading back to the corner or an edge, having used your free HET. They attack you, they can't close very well, but you risk being penned in the coming impulses, having not achieved what you were looking to do.

This is why I've been saying about why Feds with mass photons are tricky - not because you will get the shot you want (you probably won't), but you get a slightly better chance to force them out early and then try and leg it. If you attack they are evasive before you can shoot at 8, and may have fired at you at 9/10. If you turn to run they quite possibly shoot at 9/10, if you find the power to HET they follow you back to the corner/edge.

storeylf wrote:Its neither a stern chase nor head on aattcak, In this case it is manouver to avoid a range 8 shot without shooting first and/or being evasive? They are pointed in what way makes sense depending on enemy and opposing tactics. As you charge at 24(+) on turn 1 with mass photons they deploy in a way that allows them to run or attack, they move after you and get a Het per turn. Remember they only have 1 impulse they can't shoot, so you are talking 2 impulses if you want to shoot at 9/10 or 1 impulse if you want evasive at 9.

If you attack them they run, you will not get to range 8 before they turn back to face you (HET if needed) at the point they want, or at the point you give up and turn away. The range will still have closed to the range they wanted, the attacking fleet did that bit for them.

If you turn you are not closing (and not initally pulling away very fast either) then they either attack you or decel to maintain range.

If you HET, you are heading back to the corner or an edge, having used your free HET. They attack you, they can't close very well, but you risk being penned in the coming impulses, having not achieved what you were looking to do.

This is why I've been saying about why Feds with mass photons are tricky - not because you will get the shot you want (you probably won't), but you get a slightly better chance to force them out early and then try and leg it. If you attack they are evasive before you can shoot at 8, and may have fired at you at 9/10. If you turn to run they quite possibly shoot at 9/10, if you find the power to HET they follow you back to the corner/edge.

If the stingers are pointed away from you, it's even better. The mother ships certainly can't point away. They don't get the free HET and can't decelerate or turn at will. They will be getting closer while the stingers get further away. Even 1 impulse of this will give a very noticeable separation. Then the Fed or Orion force simply blows up a Mohawk or 2 and runs away making the rest of the fight much easier.

Even if the force somehow stays together, you now have a lot more of the map to work with. Going at 24, the engagement probably takes place somewhere near the middle of the map so every hex the stingers runs away means that much more of the map to play with.

An interesting choice might be 2 Orion BCs plus 2 LRs and have all option mounts consist of PL-Fs! You double engines and race toward the stinger force and let them take the range 8 shot if they wish. The goal is to get to range 4-5 and unlease potentially 14 PL-F carronades which will cripple 14 stingers. Your phasers kill the other 4 stingers and maybe do some damage to the mother ships. Then if they have any unfired gatlings/fusions, you HET and run away.

The stinger force has 3 options that I can see:

1) Fire at range 6-8. This should take out 1 LR (but probably not a BC since it has loads of power for batteries). This LR fires its PH1 and probably attempts to bolt its PL-F since it will probably die under the hail of fire. It cripples 1-2 stingers. The remaining ships get to range 4-5 and carronade. Every stinger should be dead or crippled from carronades and PH-1 fire. The Orions then HET and zip away.

2) Hold fire and try and skip the 4-5 range bracket and get to range 3. That would be very hard to do since the Orions are much faster than they are. It would be an interesting test of skill to see if they could pull it off. Even if they got to range 3, it's not completely disastrous for the Orions. They may lose 1 BC or 2 LR or possibly 1 BC and 1 LR, but all fighters should be crippled or dead at this point.

3) Send the mother ships ahead of the fighters. In this case, the PL-F get launched at them at relatively close range and they probably die. The remaining Orions then run away from the fighters and reload.

Against PL-F, evasive maneuvers are of very limited usefulness.

Of course the caveat of this force is that I'm not sure they'd be that good against other races...

Certainly an interesting force, probably a bit geared to this fight as you point out. It is fully armed at start with no power requirment, that leaves you able to go speed 32, fire phasers and not need engine doubling, but you wouldn't have HET power if you did that.

Your choice of weapons also more or less puts you in the position of needing to get close, you have no major fire advantage outside of range 8. The lower emphasis on fleeing makes for a totally different game. the range 9/10 shooting from hydrans is enough to render the LRs combat ineffective quite quick, and although that then reduces the stingers to PhG only, the hydrans still have more fire power at that point at range 8+ compared to the 2 BCs. Add in that if the BCs are doubling then they get into a bind by the time the LRs are gone, as the engine damage is racking up (possibly 6 warp down by turn 3).

I think you are also somewhat over rating its effectivness close up though (not massively, but maybe enough to make a difference); evasive manouvers has the same effect against carronades/bolt as any other weapon, 1/3 carronades will fail to cripple an evasive stinger, and you are probably looking at 3 kills? with phasers, 4 with a bit of luck. A range 4/5 shot is say 12/13 stingers. Still quite good, but also risky, Even 6 stingers getting closer than that can hurt an awful lot, add on the crippples and their ~10 ph3, plus there still being the main ships probably just behind them. In light of maybe having to deal with that you probably are doubling in order to HET straight after shooting.

1) Fire at 6-10 is certainly a possibility, which also means being evasive before you get to 4/5. if we assume orions doubled and the hydran has decel'd enough to keep the range at 8 then he hits for ~57 damage from stingers, an LR is looking at battery power of ~14, a BC ~27 maybe a touch more depending on his inclination to hold back a few points for later events. The LR looks best target, and loses (on average) all bar 1 phaser and 1 torp (by taking frame), and is left with 4 power next turn. Phasers from the main ship could finish it off. At range 9/10 you are probably left in the cripppled position noted after main ship phaser fire. Assuming you went pedal to the metal this probably happens on impulse 6, the advantage of the hydran managing to keep the initial volley to precisely range 10 if he can (possible but by no means easy, certainly unlikely with all stingers) is that he can HET then run away and you won't get to range 5 before impulse 8. You end up in the middle of the map, but with a crippled LR and whilst you get to do what you intended on turn 2, the stingers get to take out the other LR. If you didn't go flat out that shooting probably happened a bit later in the turn and you definately don't get to range 5 on turn 1.

2) Going from 6 to 3 with the stingers has nothing to do with hydran skill, but every thing to do with stunning stupidity from the orions. On the other hand if it did happen it is pretty disastrous for the Orions. Between stingers and the main ship phasers (I imagine are not far behind) you lose roughly a LR + BC (if one survives it probably dies a few impulses later). An LR and BC (with engine doubling damage and no loaded plasma) against 3 hydran vessels doesn't look a great match and you are already down 45 points.

3) The hydran ships are almost certainly doing speed 24+ as well, so are not likely to be destroyed by a plasma launch, in fact they'd probably love you launching all that plasma ineffectively, giving the stingers af free shot. That said I can't see any reason (apart from the hope of drawing out the plasma like that) why the hydran ships would be in front in this scenario. Just behind or to one side covering the orions best flee route is probably better.

mojo jojo wrote:

storeylf wrote:4K1d still restricts that to 1 HB per 3 ships.

This following rules question seems to support my point of view.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... php?t=2092

Just for the record, (5L1) trumps (4K1d). (As it turns out, (5L1) is actually the more restrictive of the two, anyway.)

mjwest wrote:

mojo jojo wrote:

storeylf wrote:4K1d still restricts that to 1 HB per 3 ships.

This following rules question seems to support my point of view.

http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... php?t=2092

Just for the record, (5L1) trumps (4K1d). (As it turns out, (5L1) is actually the more restrictive of the two, anyway.)

That is situation depending - the old rule restricted a 3/4 ship tourny force to 1 hellbore, the new rules allow 3 (or 4, if you can squeeze the points?) hellbores. Not that it bothers me per se, beyond the fact it contradicts the new rule book that I bought assuming would be the lastest rule on such things.

f the stingers are pointed away from you, it's even better. The mother ships certainly can't point away. They don't get the free HET and can't decelerate or turn at will. They will be getting closer while the stingers get further away. Even 1 impulse of this will give a very noticeable separation. Then the Fed or Orion force simply blows up a Mohawk or 2 and runs away making the rest of the fight much easier.

Not sure why you think this. The hydran main ships are not trying to run you down at this point, they are not coming at you, but again like the fighters in a fairly neutral position keeping the options open based on what you do. They can turn away or in, they have power for HET/accel/decel/evasive/phaser fire, they are not swimming in power, but they have enough for whatever scenario crops up.

Remember the Feds started in a corner, the hydrans first move is to try and restrict their movement, hopefully trying to keep them moderately boxed in for the following turn. Ideally against most races that would also see them take a range 6-8 shot, or a range 9-10 shot if not. Against massed photons 9-10 will be desired and then evasive.

In simplistic terms there are 4 things 'whomever' can do on turn 1:

1) Stay put roughly, can avoid getting hit badly on turn 1 but is in a really bad position turn 2.

2) End run along map edge xx01. He goes speed 24+ all the way. That takes FA out of arc on imp 6 (with the hydran out of O/L range on imp 5 when FA was last in arc). He ends at impulse 8 with the stingers at range 6 (as I remember) and the main ships behind him at range 2+ (If the hydran is happy being there with his main ships). The hydran definatly delivers the full stinger volley and the ships phasers through the back of a ship. On turn 2 the enemy starts only 7 hexes from another corner and with another range <9 volley unavoidable. The main hydrans are probably well positioned with plenty of power for O/L fusions at some point etc.

3) end run down the 01xx map edge. That hits a corner before you have moved 32, and makes the hydran job of boxing you in really easy.

4) Head to the center. (A)If the enemy goes speed 16 you are looking at stinger deployment about imp 5 at about range 9/10, the enemy ships only having moved 10 hexes from their corner. The main ships probably carry forward slightly to cut off a turn to the xx01 edge, the stingers are making the turn towards the xx30 edge difficult. Either turn does not really carry you away from the stingers very well. A HET is carrying straight back to the start corner/01xx edge, with stingers and main ships following. (B) If the enemy go fast, stingers deploy about impulse 4. the enmey is closer to the center, and can be more aggressive if that suits him, but the basic principles above apply, restrict movement whilst looking for the 9/10 shot and/or go evasive.

If the stingers go evasive at 9/10 the Feds (or photon orions) have a problem. Photons are going to be naff at anything less than range 2, by the time you are there it is likely to be start of turn 2 and the hydran is likely to drop out of evasive at the appropriate point and happily do the close range exchange. Turning away puts you in the same boat as the other races, being sheparded back to an edge/corner, though probably with more wiggle room than non photon races. Trying to hang around with that many stingers nearby is risky.


There are variations on those obviously, But movement wise the above is roughly what anyone has a choice of. The hydran may have to adapt that tactic to certian races, like the feds where as I've noted they probably deploy further out than they would like.

storeylf wrote:Certainly an interesting force, probably a bit geared to this fight as you point out. It is fully armed at start with no power requirment, that leaves you able to go speed 32, fire phasers and not need engine doubling, but you wouldn't have HET power if you did that.

Your choice of weapons also more or less puts you in the position of needing to get close, you have no major fire advantage outside of range 8. The lower emphasis on fleeing makes for a totally different game. the range 9/10 shooting from hydrans is enough to render the LRs combat ineffective quite quick, and although that then reduces the stingers to PhG only, the hydrans still have more fire power at that point at range 8+ compared to the 2 BCs. Add in that if the BCs are doubling then they get into a bind by the time the LRs are gone, as the engine damage is racking up (possibly 6 warp down by turn 3).

I think you are also somewhat over rating its effectivness close up though (not massively, but maybe enough to make a difference); evasive manouvers has the same effect against carronades/bolt as any other weapon, 1/3 carronades will fail to cripple an evasive stinger, and you are probably looking at 3 kills? with phasers, 4 with a bit of luck. A range 4/5 shot is say 12/13 stingers. Still quite good, but also risky, Even 6 stingers getting closer than that can hurt an awful lot, add on the crippples and their ~10 ph3, plus there still being the main ships probably just behind them. In light of maybe having to deal with that you probably are doubling in order to HET straight after shooting.

1) Fire at 6-10 is certainly a possibility, which also means being evasive before you get to 4/5. if we assume orions doubled and the hydran has decel'd enough to keep the range at 8 then he hits for ~57 damage from stingers, an LR is looking at battery power of ~14, a BC ~27 maybe a touch more depending on his inclination to hold back a few points for later events. The LR looks best target, and loses (on average) all bar 1 phaser and 1 torp (by taking frame), and is left with 4 power next turn. Phasers from the main ship could finish it off. At range 9/10 you are probably left in the cripppled position noted after main ship phaser fire. Assuming you went pedal to the metal this probably happens on impulse 6, the advantage of the hydran managing to keep the initial volley to precisely range 10 if he can (possible but by no means easy, certainly unlikely with all stingers) is that he can HET then run away and you won't get to range 5 before impulse 8. You end up in the middle of the map, but with a crippled LR and whilst you get to do what you intended on turn 2, the stingers get to take out the other LR. If you didn't go flat out that shooting probably happened a bit later in the turn and you definately don't get to range 5 on turn 1.

2) Going from 6 to 3 with the stingers has nothing to do with hydran skill, but every thing to do with stunning stupidity from the orions. On the other hand if it did happen it is pretty disastrous for the Orions. Between stingers and the main ship phasers (I imagine are not far behind) you lose roughly a LR + BC (if one survives it probably dies a few impulses later). An LR and BC (with engine doubling damage and no loaded plasma) against 3 hydran vessels doesn't look a great match and you are already down 45 points.

3) The hydran ships are almost certainly doing speed 24+ as well, so are not likely to be destroyed by a plasma launch, in fact they'd probably love you launching all that plasma ineffectively, giving the stingers af free shot. That said I can't see any reason (apart from the hope of drawing out the plasma like that) why the hydran ships would be in front in this scenario. Just behind or to one side covering the orions best flee route is probably better.

After thinking about it, I see a much better option for the Orions.

If the Hydrans fire everything at range 6-8, then simply charge to range 4-6 and launch 1 PL-F per fighter and then run away. A plasma is guaranteed to make up at least 2 hexes per impulse so a range 6 or closer launch is guaranteed death for a stinger. So that should be at least 11 guaranteed dead fighters and possibly more depending on how much damage the LR takes. And of course PH-1 should deal with additional fighters.

If the stingers hold their PH-G to deal with Plasma, then they do 24 pts less damage at range 6-8, thus probably leaving the LR target with decent weapons and power left. Plus they are not evasive maneuvering. At this point, the Orion reaches range 4-5 and carronades. Or if they can reach range 4 exactly, they launch since the stingers must HET to avoid being hit in 1 impulse and couldn't fire gatlings anyway.

All in all, as long as the Orion avoids range 3, they'll trade a LR for at least 15 stingers which is a winning trade.

storeylf wrote:Not sure why you think this. The hydran main ships are not trying to run you down at this point, they are not coming at you, but again like the fighters in a fairly neutral position keeping the options open based on what you do. They can turn away or in, they have power for HET/accel/decel/evasive/phaser fire, they are not swimming in power, but they have enough for whatever scenario crops up.

Remember the Feds started in a corner, the hydrans first move is to try and restrict their movement, hopefully trying to keep them moderately boxed in for the following turn. Ideally against most races that would also see them take a range 6-8 shot, or a range 9-10 shot if not. Against massed photons 9-10 will be desired and then evasive.

Either the Hydran mother ships are pointing toward the Fed/Orion or away. I don't think they'd be pointing sideways. And even if they're pointing sideways, they're going to have some separation from the fighters if the stingers are pointing away from the Fed/Orion. It's pretty much impossible to keep the stingers and the mother ships together if the stingers are pointing away and if you want the motherships to be able to fire. And once there's some separation between them, then the Fed/Orion can exploit that and zap 1 group and then run away.

The Hydran player's only real chance is to keep everyone together in 1 big blob of 7 hexes since that's how they score crippling internal damage with everyone hitting the same shield. This will not be achieved if the stingers point away from the Fed/Orion in order to avoid range 8.

Either the Hydran mother ships are pointing toward the Fed/Orion or away. I don't think they'd be pointing sideways. And even if they're pointing sideways, they're going to have some separation from the fighters if the stingers are pointing away from the Fed/Orion.

In each if the games i've played this setup (just played the same hydran force tonight again) I've found it best to have the mother ships stay broadside on as long as possible on turn 1, keeping options open. Fighter launch is no earlier than 4, and maybe as late as 6. Barring main ship acceleration you seperate 1 hex per impulse. Not enough to readily exploit, especially given that the point of that facing is to be able to react to pretty much anything the enemy does.

Unless the enemy really do get close, the main ships are not looking to fire accept as an incidental event, they are looking to launch fighters in a good position, it is the stingers who deliver excellent firepower at mid range, not the ships. On turn 1 the primary objectives for the main ships are:

1) move fast and get to a good fighter launch point
2) move for a good turn 2 position.

Priority 2 means you don't want to commit to early to something with the high turn mode, and allow the enemy to turn away or side step you, you want him semi cornered for next turn when you have full power and start closer with both stingers and main ships.

That doesn't mean some enemy force or tactic won't force a change, but I see no reason the feds get a turn 8 shot at either stingers or main ships (on turn 1 at any rate) except where they have fired previously (for the stingers) and are evasive.


My regular opponent who has lost each time to this force (and he knew in advance this week I was going to play them) is going to play the hydran next week, and I'm going to see if I can beat it. At the moment I am tempted by your Fed/orion forces. But I think I'd be relying on a mistake by the hydrans.

storeylf wrote:

Either the Hydran mother ships are pointing toward the Fed/Orion or away. I don't think they'd be pointing sideways. And even if they're pointing sideways, they're going to have some separation from the fighters if the stingers are pointing away from the Fed/Orion.

In each if the games i've played this setup (just played the same hydran force tonight again) I've found it best to have the mother ships stay broadside on as long as possible on turn 1, keeping options open. Fighter launch is no earlier than 4, and maybe as late as 6. Barring main ship acceleration you seperate 1 hex per impulse. Not enough to readily exploit, especially given that the point of that facing is to be able to react to pretty much anything the enemy does.

Unless the enemy really do get close, the main ships are not looking to fire accept as an incidental event, they are looking to launch fighters in a good position, it is the stingers who deliver excellent firepower at mid range, not the ships. On turn 1 the primary objectives for the main ships are:

1) move fast and get to a good fighter launch point
2) move for a good turn 2 position.

Priority 2 means you don't want to commit to early to something with the high turn mode, and allow the enemy to turn away or side step you, you want him semi cornered for next turn when you have full power and start closer with both stingers and main ships.

That doesn't mean some enemy force or tactic won't force a change, but I see no reason the feds get a turn 8 shot at either stingers or main ships (on turn 1 at any rate) except where they have fired previously (for the stingers) and are evasive.


My regular opponent who has lost each time to this force (and he knew in advance this week I was going to play them) is going to play the hydran next week, and I'm going to see if I can beat it. At the moment I am tempted by your Fed/orion forces. But I think I'd be relying on a mistake by the hydrans.

I don't see how the Hydran can be broadside for most of turn 1 as you're suggesting. If they start broadside from the beginning, they're giving WAY too much of the map to the opposition. If they turn during the impulse of launch, then with a turn mode of 5, they're not getting back into the fight anytime soon and will zip away from stingers that are pointed backwards (barring a HET). I can't see how there won't be a decent separation between the 2 groups of ships that can be exploited.

If the mother ships zip away at speed 24 sideways, then the Fed has it easy. They can simply fire at range 11-12 at the stingers pointing away from them without worry of the mother ships intervening. Phasers should cripple 2 stingers and photons should cripple around 5 more. Then the Fed turns in the direction opposite to the mother ships and runs away. By the time the mother ships turn around and recover, the Feds will probably have their photons reloaded and maybe have picked off a couple more stingers with long range phaser fire.

Whilst the fed/orion photon force is definately one of the better forces, all I can say is that after playing the hydrans on that map several times that I'm pretty sure that things won't go as you say mojo. How much that would affect things overall I'm not sure.


We played with the hydran stinger force again tonight, but this time with my opponent playing the hydrans.

I almost went with the photon force, but in the end decided that I would go either orion with mass phasers 1s (34 ph1, speed 24+ and no clear need to double so retaining the +1 stealth) or Romulans. I'd already beaten romulans with the hydrans, but after a lot of thought decided that the roms coud pull it off (maybe, with impeccable timing and a dose of luck).

My opponent was playing hydrans for only the 2nd time, and I was playing the Roms for the first time. So both of us somewhat out of our comfort zones. Though we are both fairly experinced generally.

In the end, after 3 hours I won in a low scoring game.

I lost a snipe = 75pts.
I killed 7 stingers and crippled 2, plus 16 pts for the cheaper force = 96pts.

I made a stupid mistake on my initial attack that almost lost me the game (3 stingers popped a pristine snipe that should never have been in the position it was), fortunately my opponent had some bad luck on attacks, he failed to score any further internals on my ships (even 3 range 0 fusions bounced off my uncloaked back shield on the last attack of the game!!).

A hard game for both sides, neither side seems to have a clear advantage. +4 range and half damage kills off Hdran fusion and gatlings, but that many stingers sitting around you makes uncloaking extremely difficult. The 48 impulse cloaking rule never really came into it, cloaks and lots of stingers makes for a slow game, even if there isn't a lot of shooting.

Anyway we have had enough of that hydran force for the moment, next week is back to some other random match up.