Faster plasma?

[Mike]

Extending tractor beam range with increased costs would help plasma launching ships.

[Scoutdad]

marcus has the gist of it...
we've played several dozen plasma race battles (including Gorn v Romulan) - afterall, Plasmaboy had to get his name somehow; right?

A plasma ballet... er, battle is a long, drawn-out affair. 10 to 12 rounds would be what I'd estimate a minimum time frame to be. This is between manuevering for the launch nad taking time to reload.

If you're charging in like you're flying a direct-fire ship and bolting the plamas, you're missing the richness of the weapon... and there's no wonder you feel the point values are off.

A plasma bolt is great... under the proper tactical circumstances, but it should never be the prefered method of accomplishing your goal to damage the other guys ships.

Patience is the key. Take your time... keep the range open... snipe with phasers... and wait for your opponent to tire of the cat-and-mouse game and make a mistake. After that, it's up to you to capitalize on his misfortune.

[storeylf]

And Storyelf in the captains Log Tournament Reports there is only 1 Plasma Race that has been used and that is the Romulans in a fleet scale game in 2007 and in this game the federation player used the Close and Hose tactic (which is perfectly viable and well played) that allowed them to fire everything and evade any repurcusion for it. Also there was no pre-defined LDR squadron at the Tournament this year, maybe the LDR players were loath to bring one of their own as well.

This is the key. One plasma race has been played in any Origins tourney ever and they got destroyed by exactly the tactic everyone says is how to handle plasma ships. Tourney level players appear to understand the imbalance.

The LDR point sums up exactly what I'm getting at. We have no idea why people did or did not play a race. Maybe it was the lack of LDR in the set fleets, maybe it wasn't. Maybe people didn't like the set rom/gorn fleets. Maybe people just generally have an inclination to a certain style of play. The fact that plasma races have been played once in a tourney that has never had more than 8 players does not mean that there is a balance issue with then generally, and shouldn't necessarily be taken to mean there is an issue even in the tournament setting.

The fact that in the 1 game someone took a plasma race they lost (did he only play 1 game?) doesn't mean much either. All other things being equal he had almost a 50% chance of losing anyway!

If you get all the players who played actually saying that plasma have an issue then you can say actual tourney players (as opposed to 'tourney level' - what does that mean?) appear to think there is a problem, correctly or not. Just looking at the very small raw data set tells us nothing of the sort.

Just out of interest can anyone list how many people turned up at each tourney and what races were played? How many unique players have played, are the people who played in 2007/2008/2009 also amongst the 8 who played this time round.

[Savedfromwhat]

SVC has spoken on this issue if he doesn't see a problem I am through talking into the wind.

[mjwest]

SVC has spoken on this issue if he doesn't see a problem I am through talking into the wind.

Note that he did not say, "There is no problem. Move on." He is open to the idea there is a problem. But you will have to convince him with some serious evidence, as he doesn't see it now.

(I am not weighing in on the discussion one way or the other. I am just pointing out that Steve is not shutting the discussion down, he is merely ruling out one mentioned response.)

[Savedfromwhat]

Well then if anyone would like to tqke a gorn or romulan force I am available tonight to play fconline at 1800 pacific time, I will log in approx 30 min before

[mjwest]

One comment I can't let pass: Federation Commander is supposed to be fun and exciting. Plasma ballet is as boring as watching paint dry. The whole point is to be able to have a full battle in an hour or so. Running around waiting for your opponent to get bored and do something stupid is not a real tactic. It is also outright illegal in tournament where you basically have a hard time limit.

So, if the only way to make plasma work is to run around for 10+ turns waiting for your opponent to get bored and make a mistake, then that would qualify as broken in my book.

Note that this is not me taking a side. Just sayin' ...

[DirkSJ]

One comment I can't let pass: Federation Commander is supposed to be fun and exciting. Plasma ballet is as boring as watching paint dry. The whole point is to be able to have a full battle in an hour or so. Running around waiting for your opponent to get bored and do something stupid is not a real tactic. It is also outright illegal in tournament where you basically have a hard time limit.

So, if the only way to make plasma work is to run around for 10+ turns waiting for your opponent to get bored and make a mistake, then that would qualify as broken in my book.

Note that this is not me taking a side. Just sayin' ...

Two folks from the "plasma is fine" side have made this their argument: Plasma is fine when you ballet and take 10+ turns. Will either of you or anyone else take the stance that plasma is fine in a 1 hour 3-5 turn game?

If not then, as I read MJW's post, plasma is not fine. If we aren't closing, maneuvering for best shot and blowing things up then we aren't playing FC. Flying around in circles for hours waiting for the perfect shot isn't FC.

There's a rule in AVT that says "rule disputes should be settled in favor of ships blowing up because this is a game about ships blowing up." I feel the same about FC.

[Savedfromwhat]

One comment I can't let pass: Federation Commander is supposed to be fun and exciting. Plasma ballet is as boring as watching paint dry. The whole point is to be able to have a full battle in an hour or so. Running around waiting for your opponent to get bored and do something stupid is not a real tactic. It is also outright illegal in tournament where you basically have a hard time limit.

So, if the only way to make plasma work is to run around for 10+ turns waiting for your opponent to get bored and make a mistake, then that would qualify as broken in my book.

Note that this is not me taking a side. Just sayin' ...

Two folks from the "plasma is fine" side have made this their argument: Plasma is fine when you ballet and take 10+ turns. Will either of you or anyone else take the stance that plasma is fine in a 1 hour 3-5 turn game?

If not then, as I read MJW's post, plasma is not fine. If we aren't closing, maneuvering for best shot and blowing things up then we aren't playing FC. Flying around in circles for hours waiting for the perfect shot isn't FC.

There's a rule in AVT that says "rule disputes should be settled in favor of ships blowing up because this is a game about ships blowing up." I feel the same about FC.

I don't agree that FC should be a game where we just bludgeon each other to death, I do believe that there is room for finesse and maneuver. I'll admit I have never tried the
12 turn ballet before, if it works it isn't much different then the klingon saber dance which also takes multiple turns to pull off. I do agree that holding out on being the more patient player is not a viable tactic though, relying on your opponent to make a mistake is a quick way to end up dead in this game and rightfully so. Mjwest isn't saying there is anything wrong with plasma, just that if it takes 10+ turns to be viable there is something wrong with it. Many scenarios have a 10 turn time limit and the tournament has a soft limit of 5 turns so I would like to find another option.

[pinecone]

The K7R is based on the D7, and equal match for the CA. The KR, based on the D6, is not.

Do not take any ofense at this, and it will sound silly, but:

If you aren't willing (or aren't able to) put the time in to win with plasma, then don't use it.

Again, I understand real life overules winning in a game. Me and my dad typically only get 1 1/2 hrs. each week to play. But when we can't finish (which we usually can't), we just leave it for next time. We've been playing Refiners Fire for three weeks now, and there are still a good 4 or 5 turns left I think.

Plasma is strong enough, it just requires time to use effectively.

[Nerroth]

One thing which I didn't see noted about Romulan ships is that their Point Values have the presence of their cloaking devices factored in to the total. (Orion ships have to pay for theirs, but the concept is the same.)

Do Romulan players in FC not like using their cloaks?



As an aside, one thing I'd be interested ti hear about is whether or not the issue with plasma (if there is one) only arises in the Main Era, or if it hampers Middle Years combat, too. While pretty much everyone has something they lose (or rather, have yet to gain) in the B2 array of ships, are the Gorns and Romulans of that era relatively worse off?



Also, when it comes to plasma, it's worth remembering that whatever changes (if any) that are made to them will have a knock-on effect on Orion and ISC ships, as well as Gorn and Romulan ones. The Orions have their own tricks they can go with alongside plasma options, which could make things more problematic if they also get the same plsma benefit as others; while as Terry notes in a post elsewhere, the differences between the PPD in SFB and FC have an impact on how a Concordium ship will fly, even before you start looking at things like their rear-firing Pl-Fs.

[mjwest]

The K7R is based on the D7, and equal match for the CA. The KR, based on the D6, is not.

You appear to be missing the point the other poster is making. Equating the K7R with the D7 doesn't work because they have very different point values. The K7R is 166 points. The D7 is only 138. That is an important difference.

Actually, comparing the D7 and KR is a very far comparison. The D7 is 138 and the KR is 132, a much more manageable difference. They should be a fairly even match, and should be able to fight anything the other can fight.

So, the fact that the KR is based on the D6 doesn't really matter. What matters is that the KR and D7 are rated as the equivalent ships (based on point value), and they are the ones that should be compared.

A fairer fight for the K7R is the D5WL (an exact match at 166 points).

[DirkSJ]

The K7R is based on the D7, and equal match for the CA. The KR, based on the D6, is not.

Do not take any ofense at this, and it will sound silly, but:

If you aren't willing (or aren't able to) put the time in to win with plasma, then don't use it.

Again, I understand real life overules winning in a game. Me and my dad typically only get 1 1/2 hrs. each week to play. But when we can't finish (which we usually can't), we just leave it for next time. We've been playing Refiners Fire for three weeks now, and there are still a good 4 or 5 turns left I think.

Plasma is strong enough, it just requires time to use effectively.

That isn't the design intent of FC, however, as far as I understand it. The design intent of FC is to get away from some of the problems SFB had: very complex rules and long games.

If one race is designed to play in a way that encourages extremely long games (or worse REQUIRES it) then it's an issue as it's at odds with the design intent.

[storeylf]

One comment I can't let pass: Federation Commander is supposed to be fun and exciting. Plasma ballet is as boring as watching paint dry. The whole point is to be able to have a full battle in an hour or so. Running around waiting for your opponent to get bored and do something stupid is not a real tactic. It is also outright illegal in tournament where you basically have a hard time limit.

So, if the only way to make plasma work is to run around for 10+ turns waiting for your opponent to get bored and make a mistake, then that would qualify as broken in my book.

Note that this is not me taking a side. Just sayin' ...

mmm, I can see where you are coming from, the hard time limit is what I've also noted as being IMO the main problem in tourneys with plasma. However, I take issue with outright illegal issue, how is it illegal to play according to the rules of the game in a way that best maximises your chances of winning? A tourney is by definition a competetive setup, you shouldn't be telling players it is illegal to play in a way that bests suits their choice of ships when the alternative is to lose.

Also what is the line that determines illegality, if I pass up a chance to fire at range 15 against a 24+ ship capable of HET, range 8, range 1? Do I have to fire every turn with my 3 turn arming weapons to remain legal? I see nothing in the tourney rules to say dive in and exchange shots at 10 paces, may the best dice rolling win.

Are klingons avoiding overload range against photons playing illegally? what about tholians, the cads, hiding behind web slowly phasering you to score the 10% for a few points of damage?

I've won all my plasma games (all 3 of them!) in tourney style games so far, but every one has been a low scoring game by virtue of the fact that I know that I will get 1 'useful' (but not decisively damaging launch), and hence I can't afford to be taking damage my self, nor launching willy nilly. In one game my 6 plasma S tubes did a grand total of 6 damage to a shield, but that was all I needed it to do to win (actually I didn't need them to do anything), no one lost a ship but I damaged 2 of his vs only 1 of mine damaged.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You may consider it boring because ships aren't blowing up each turn with 100+ damage, I consider it very exciting when 2 opponents are in a game of cat and mouse, circling each other waiting for that chance to deliver a decent blow and take less in exchange.

Running around waiting for the other guy to make a mistake is a perfectly valid tactic. FedCom may not be SFB, but its hardly a Beer and pretzels game either.

I can't reconcile your opinion with the game itself. You have a 3 turn arming weapon, that takes time to arrive at the target, can be outrun, can't usually deliver decisve killing damage even at point blank range against an equal ship and yet you expect the game to be quick and decisive. Maybe I am reading more into what you intend than I should, but I think plasma is fine in the general game, they play differently to other races, and that is the point of races is it not, to provide different systems, playstyles and tactics. If you want quick, charge, and its all over then you already have Feds, Ldr, and Hydran who can all do the fast and decisve style of game, no need to make everyone like that. Our last game was hydran vs LDR and it was basically over on turn 2 as we passed each other.

[ericphillips]

The LDR point sums up exactly what I'm getting at. We have no idea why people did or did not play a race. Maybe it was the lack of LDR in the set fleets, maybe it wasn't. Maybe people didn't like the set rom/gorn fleets. Maybe people just generally have an inclination to a certain style of play. The fact that plasma races have been played once in a tourney that has never had more than 8 players does not mean that there is a balance issue with then generally, and shouldn't necessarily be taken to mean there is an issue even in the tournament setting.

Just from casual play, I have only played ONE game with a Romulan as an opponent, and it wasn't combat, it was where a Rom has to do lab work to win. Most times people are playing certain races, and others are much rarer. I am not sure why, but this is what I see. Gorn is also rare to see.