Federation Commander

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:Under 4F5 -- Both impact that shield of the target and both cause damage (and either or both could be stopped by defensive fire) ---

So if I have a phaser available, destroy the first drone with defensive fire, the second goes inert and not do damage ---

That is true... but the text of the note (note printed here) specifically stated if your opponent has expended all available weapons and has one or more of your "impacted" drones held in a tractor beam...

If he still has phasers, the whole point is moot anyway.

If he still has phasers, the whole point is moot anyway.

Not everyone is so intense they always check that fact ----

Personally, sounds more useful when Drone user is allied with a Plasma user --- if drone is tractored, then target it with a plasma ----

Ouch!
Gorn targets Plasma R on the Federation drone held off an out-of-arc, but downed shield on a Romulan vessel...

Sorry for being dumb, but where does the 24 points of damage come from? If Drone A is impacted by Drone B, then isn't Drone A simply destroyed? Surely it doesn't explode? Drone B impacts it's target, namely Drone A and applies its 12 points of damage to Drone A, not to the ship that merely happens to be in the same hex as Drone A. Therefore, I don't see how there is any damage to the ship.

Sorry if I'm missing something really obvious.

This is the only instance where a drone hitting a drone (or any other object), affects a third object in the hex ---

This is a carry-over from SFB, (don't think you could fire at one of your own),
but a drone in tractor would be at range 1 or up to 3, and wouldn't have to worry about any damage to the ship ---
The actual instance is because of ships firing drones at attacking drones and both arrived at the target hex the same impulse --

Seeking weapons always moved after their target, if at the same speed, so the second drone would move after the first (which technically should have gone off before the second moved if it entered the target hex) ----
Can only imagine (even in SFB) what kinda of torpedo like rules would have had to been made to figure out for certain where each was in a hex, so you got what is there ---

Sneaky Scot wrote:Sorry for being dumb, but where does the 24 points of damage come from? If Drone A is impacted by Drone B, then isn't Drone A simply destroyed? Surely it doesn't explode? Drone B impacts it's target, namely Drone A and applies its 12 points of damage to Drone A, not to the ship that merely happens to be in the same hex as Drone A. Therefore, I don't see how there is any damage to the ship.

Sorry if I'm missing something really obvious.

You are missing the rule scoutdad quoted earlier, it is pretty explicit that you take the damage.

Reading that rule again though is amusing.

Drone A is targeted at Drone B, B at a ship.

If B hits A - how? it was aimed at a ship.

And A was tractored after a previous impact - how? does drone B have tractors?


Yeah - I know it was probably a misprint. But it amuses me anyway.

If Ship A launches Drone at Ship B, ship B/ship C launches a drone at the first drone and they impact in the hex with Ship C, nothing happens but the destruction of both drones --

Easy to rationally believe what he is saying ----

I also question how this situation can result in the target ship taking any damage. I do not have my rule book with me right now but earlier Scoutdad put this qoute in -(4F5c) ...If seeking weapon A is targeted on seeking weapon B, and B impacts its target before A reaches it, then A is removed and B is treated as an impact. If A and B both reach the target of B on the same subpulse (or if B hits A, which previously impacted and was stopped by a tractor beam), BOTH impact that shield of the target and BOTH cause damage...- which would seem to allow scoutdad's tactic but in fact I do not believe it does. Lets dissect the rule (4F5c). 1st line -If seeking weapon A is targeted on seeking weapon B, and B impacts its target before A reaches it, then A is removed and B is treated as an impact-, so by this line if the B hits the ship (target whatever) before A gets to the same hex B impacts and A is removed from play, very straight forward so moving on. 2nd Line says -If A and B both reach the target of B on the same subpulse
(or if B hits A, which previously impacted and was stopped by a tractor beam), BOTH impact that shield of the target and BOTH cause damage- going to break this up over more than one part. The first part of the line reads -If A and B both reach the target of B on the same subpulse- which would definitely say that both drones hit the target and explode on whatever shield B hit, however at this point we have both drones in flight, no tractor involved because it explicitly says both drones must arrive in the same hex as the target during the same subpulse. Next part says -(or if B hits A, which previously impacted and was stopped by a tractor beam)- now here is the part would seem to allow the tractor beam to be holding one of the drones, however it explicitly says that drone B must hit A, an impossibility since B is not targeted on A and since by the requirements of the tactic B is in a tractor beam.

You can argue all day long that this part -(or if B hits A, which previously impacted and was stopped by a tractor beam)- is a typo and should read -(or if A hits B, which previously impacted and was stopped by a tractor beam)- but it does say what it says at this point. Also this tactic would seem to make drones way to strong be making it dangerous or useless to tractor drones.

By my read I do not think the rules support this tactic, I also would be very against a change to the wording of (4F5c) to make the tactic valid as it makes using a tractor beam to stop a drone almost useless. I say useless because at best if I tractor a drone I have to kill it before the drone users racks cycle or next turn I am going to get hit by last turns drones and the next turns drones and to make matters worse I do not even get a self defense phase on the second launch.

As a follow up (again not having my rule book) if (4F5c) really actually says -or if A hits B- then I believe this makes drones way over powered. For example say I am closing with a drone user with 4 drones between us that he fired this turn. I want to close and do maximum damage. To get through the drones I have to destroy them (using phasers I want to save for his ship), tractor them (assuming I have a tractor beam and power to spare) or take some hits. Since I want to close and do maximum damage I phaser down 2 and tractor 2. I close and blast the drone user. He is significantly hurt but not dead. We end the turn at close range and go to energy allocation. Since we are close the drone user can simply launch to drones at the drones I am holding and easily get 4 drone hits on me and I do not even get a defensive fire phase to stop this from happening. Many other examples/hypothetical

Yes, you get a defense against the drone in the tractor and the drone targeted on the first (4F5c, you could ask whether Defensive Fire in that rule also includes use of tractor on the second drone) --

His tactic is to use it when the target has fired all his phasers or is out of energy -- He agrees that if you can kill the first drone (even after the second strikes), the second does no damage ---

The abstract interaction of movement and defensive fire causes some actions which seem unsupportable when you think about them ---

The tactic isn't designed to be used over turn break ---

As the rules read, you can, not power the tractor, the drones will move again, then you go through the Defensive Fire stage again, if you have enough speed you move first and the drones follow (putting them on a different shield) --

He can't launch again till the final stage which is Launch is the last action phase --
You will either of, killed the drones, retractored them (which messes up the tactic, as he wants the explosion on a down shield), or let one or both hit (if they are on a non-facing shield you can absorb the damage) ---

mjwest wrote:

ncrcalamine wrote:Just to be clear. If you target a tractored drone held by the enemy, and the second drone hits the tractored drone, there is no defensive fire because the target was the drone and not the ship. The ship or it's shields then take 24 points of drone damage.

Yes, that is correct. Do note that the shield that takes damage is the one the tractored drone impacted, not whatever shield is facing the enemy at the moment.

Please escalate this ruling to SVC.

I am doing so.

BTW, pmiller's concerns about the close in secondary drone launch is not true. If you finish reading through the whole second paragraph of (4F5c), you get to the part that says if both drones hit for damage, the target ship can use defensive fire against both drones. So, you always get that last chance to stop the drones, even the second one not technically targeted on the ship.

Oh, one more thing. The start of the first parenthetical comment in the second paragraph of (4F5c) (that is causing this problem) is a typo. It should start "(or if A hits B ..." The order given in the rule is obviously backwards, but the meaning should still be quite clear.

As a followup question to Paul, which part do you want me to ask about? The "firing a drone at a friend drone" part or the "drone hitting an impacted drone held in a tractor causes both to explode" part? I went ahead and asked about both, but I am curious as to which was actually bothering you?

Don't know about him, but still don't believe you should be able to target a friendly drone ---

That both do damage is carried over from SFB, but that's having one of your drones follow the enemy's drone in ---

Though a msg board isn't the best/easiest way to convey thoughts about issues, especially when more than a couple people are posting concurrently ---