Federation Commander

mjwest wrote:

rulesjd wrote:Like I pointed out, rather than fudging the plasma movement or changing BPV's, it would simply be more practical to allow plasma races either to be fully loaded or at least be in rolling delay at the start. This means a 1st and 4th turn launch capability for them in tournaments with similar power curve limits as Fed's.

That really won't do anything. The issue is that plasma can't hit, not that it isn't ready. So, whether you launch those two Pl-S torpedoes on turn one, or turn two, they still aren't going to hit a target moving 24+1.

Whilst I'm not sure the solution presented woud make much diffence, I expect it would be a slight improvement. You are right that the ready state of the plasma isn't really the issue. But you are not correct to imply that the issue is just that it doesn't hit.

Actually, not hitting is a generally false statement from my experience anyway, they nearly always do hit, just that the hit comes after the damage has degraded to a point that is acceptable to the target.

Part of the reason plasma tends to play the way you find boring is the 3 turn arming. Even if plasma was a proper direct fire weapon you wouldn't go firing it unless you had a good chance of delivering a game winning strike if it still took 3 turns and bucket load of power to arm. If you failed to effectively win in that 1 shot then you are in big trouble the following 2 turns. That is why bolts, whilst useful, are situational at best. As noted by someone else earlier, bolts have a good chance of missing and are don't usually deliver decisive damage when they do, yet you will then have to wait 3 turns to fire again. It is a combination of being a seeker that can be outrun, with damage that degrades the longer it runs, and a 3 turn arming cycle that biases plasma races to play in a way you think is broken. I don't think it is unbalanced, but obviuosly what we see as being 'broken' because of some subjective 'excitment' factor is going to differ from person to person.

In a tourney especially, with a hard time limit, that 3 turn arming is a killer, you are possibly going to get just 1 shot so best wait until you can make it a good shot, and after that 1 shot you will find that fixed map, which is supposed to be your friend, is a double edge sword as you try to avoid the enemy whilst rearming.

Changing the chance to hit would cetainly improve plasma, so would other things even if the chance of hitting didn't improve. If like drones they did full damage all the way out they would be improved, if you could 2 turn arm (the normal size, not just an F) they would be improved. They may be non-starters for whatever reasons, and I don't see a need for any improvement, but just saying that hit chance is just 1 factor that makes them what they are.

storeylf wrote: If like drones they did full damage all the way out they would be improved....

The thing here is that this is an historical thing - the plasma torp does diminish with range; that's established in Balance of Terror [TOS] and is accounted for in geeskpeak by saying that the power was used to move the torpedo.

Kang wrote:

storeylf wrote: If like drones they did full damage all the way out they would be improved....

The thing here is that this is an historical thing - the plasma torp does diminish with range; that's established in Balance of Terror [TOS] and is accounted for in geeskpeak by saying that the power was used to move the torpedo.

I'm aware of the fact that some things are as they are for reasons to do with what appeared on TV. I'm merely pointing out that plasma plays the way it does because of a combination of factors, not simply due to the chance to hit. Changing any of those factors would alter the way it plays. As I noted, I realise some things that one could change aren't going to get changed. Of course, whilst plasma diminishes with range on TV, one could tweak how much it dimishes with range, such that it lasts longer. Again it probably wouldn't happen due to a desire to keep weapon charts more or less the same as SFB. And like I have said, I don't personally see a great issue in the first place.

mjwest wrote:

rulesjd wrote:Like I pointed out, rather than fudging the plasma movement or changing BPV's, it would simply be more practical to allow plasma races either to be fully loaded or at least be in rolling delay at the start. This means a 1st and 4th turn launch capability for them in tournaments with similar power curve limits as Fed's.

That really won't do anything. The issue is that plasma can't hit, not that it isn't ready. So, whether you launch those two Pl-S torpedoes on turn one, or turn two, they still aren't going to hit a target moving 24+1.

This I don't understand. It is certainly true that a plasma will not impact a speed 24+ ship if it is at a high angle of deflection or moving away. This always the case in SFB where it was tactically demanding to get a significant plasma strike to hit.

However, on a closed tournament map, the crunch races must get into overload range and would prefer something shorter than range 8. If you launch plasma (only one S if you have two of them and nothing else) while the cruncher is seeking to close, they either have to accept damage on a facing shield, to which you can add phaser fire, or they have to keep the range open.

If they do run,you can follow and try and paint them into a corner where they cannot evade the plasma.

I fully respect your experience, contributions and viewpoint on FC. I would just like to see some good Gorn/Romulan players weighing in on the "impossibility" of effective plasma use in tournaments.

rulesjd wrote:This I don't understand. It is certainly true that a plasma will not impact a speed 24+ ship if it is at a high angle of deflection or moving away. This always the case in SFB where it was tactically demanding to get a significant plasma strike to hit.

In SFB people cannot easily jump to speed 32 the moment a plasma is inbound on them like they can in FC. There generally just isn't enough reserve warp available and even if there is you have just severely limited yourself for the rest of the turn in both planning for that and using all your battery for that. In addition you could have just wasted all of that power and your HET; it could have been a psuedo.

In SFB you can't easily close to range 1 or 2 down the nose, fire your wad, HET, and run and be unscathed by plasma. You can in FC. Very easily. End result being you've crippled or at least heavily damaged their ship and taken only a weak phaser suite to the nose (a shield you don't care much about anymore as you aren't likely going nose-in again). You can then fly around at medium range and speed 24 taking pot shots, ready to turn and burn the moment a plasma is incoming. You've won.

On top of this ships on average fly much faster in general in FC meaning even if plasmas do hit they will likely do far less damage as it will take longer to get there.

JD,
I am a long time Gorn/Romulan player and I am good. Plasma has a problem, the problem is getting to hit. In a tournament I don't need more then range 8 as the federation, at 8 I can Superstack all 3 of my ships and fire 12 OL photons at one of your ships, even if I do less then average and only hit with 5 I have just crippled one of your ships and If I fire phasers I cant chase you down I will run out of power, so I have to wait until next turn and depending on the Range I still may not be able to hit you.

I could go EM right? Well then my opponent gets to come closer and when I drop it he is much closer and can still HET and run. The old tactic of cloaking to range 5 Launching and going evasive next impulse was a huge boost to the Plasma Races and I am very glad it is gone (EM was way tooverpowered before), but even that only worked for the Roms and it only worked once.

Changing when plasma is armed will not help the situation because I could 2 turn F arm all my Heavy Plasmas launch them and still not hit, it isn't an issue of being ready for your opponent it is an issue of plasma not being able to hit at speed 32.

The "follow the plasma with your phasers" doesn't really work so well in FedCom either since a canny opponent can elect to take the torp on a shield during subpulse 1-3, and then have another facing you for direct fire after subpulse 4.

My group hates seeking weapons, feeling that they are generally bad weapons. Drones are at least tolerated for being 0 power, 360 arcs, and firing every turn (until th rack is empty). Plasmas just get no love, especially as plasma ships have few or no other heavy weapons.

So... Plasma.
I wouldn't say I'm a 'good plasma' player as was requested above. I will say that the 'plasma balet' as it was described above is not the only way to play plasma races.

As a plasma race, if you let your oponent reach range <5, you've made a gross mistake somewhere prior. To this line:

DirkSJ wrote: In SFB you can't easily close to range 1 or 2 down the nose, fire your wad, HET, and run and be unscathed by plasma. You can in FC. Very easily.

This is exactly why as a plasma race you do not let a fully armed alpha strike inside it's money shot range (I'd argue even 8 hexes is bad).
It's not very easy IMO in FC, as you say, to close to 1-2 hexes, unless your opponent does/is forced to do one of three things:
1) Lets you (through specific actions, such as setting low baseline speed lower than your own, thus allowing you to overrun him).
2) Makes a huge mistake (Maneuver, lack of planning, etc; options are miriade)
3) Is limited in some way by scenario or the sorry state of his ship.

Personally, I don't care for Gorn. I do however enjoy Romulans quite abit (late war even more; but Hellbore Hydrans are my true love ) The other viable tactic in FC for plasma has actually already been descibed in this thread, albeit, it was used to describe that person's tactic in SFB (which I have never played).

To use a Tourney setup fleet, that I would happily use in said tourney...
FireHawk CA (179)
Sparrow Hawk CL (135)
Sparrow Hawk CL (135)
total : 449 pts.

4 PL-S; 6 Pl-F; 17 P1; 12 P3

Alternative tactic to the 'Plasma Ballet'.
At about range 13 (you can vary this abit; 10 is bad, 14 is abit far) you launch 1-2 PL-S/F (personally I prefer targeting the smallest ship, where this single/dual plasma is the biggest threat). This forces the opponent (invariably per this threads implication, a direct fire, down your throat, charge! 'button masher') to do 1 of the following:
1) Charge the plasma
2) Turn and run.
3) Break the plasma target off and advance with remaining ships (this option is least apealing against a 4 ship fleet, preferable vs. 3 ship fleets).

If option 1, you as the plasma race, decelerate. If they decelerate also, it hits in 3 turns (unless they spend 12 energy, which is okay too... and a turn 4 hit). If they accelerate, it hits in 2 turns, and you have another 'relatively riskless' plasma launch oppertunity at 9-10 hexes, where the opponent has to make the same choice again. Alternatively they may choose to spend offensive weapons in defense of the targeted ship... also a good thing.

If option 2, you give chase. Keeping the range about the same, in case they HET. Phasor fire on the opponents rear shield facing even at this range will be much greater than he can send back your way. A losing proposition for him. IF he does HET after turning to run, you're now at the same 2nd decision point found in option 1.

If option 3, you do a combination of the other 2 options. Firstly, the 3vs2/3 (you should now have a 20-30% BPV advantage) works in your favor. You decelerate as with option 1, take another PL-S shot at something, at range 9/10, make him choose to come at you with even less of his fleet, or run. If he runs, give chase, phasor fire in rear facing shields will go badly for him, if he wants to charge you, take advantage of the BPV advantage in the engagement.

Granted, these should be general guidelines. But they have worked well for me so far. Each situation/race requires slight tweaks. But... that's the whole point I thought? If it was always a canned response... where would the fun be.

Generally...
I disagree with the blanket assumption that I appear to see in this thread that Plasmas are 3 turn arming. A 2 turn armed plasma F can be every bit of a deterrent (especially when talking about multiples) that the larger charges are. Accounting for 2 Turn arming, you also have in the fleet above, a turn 1 shot of 10 plasma Fs. ie; 200/160/100/40 damage potential. I'm not willing to discount that potential. I just think it takes alot more foresight and tactics than a direct fire race. And that's a good thing in my book.

Cloak...
To the comment about Romulans and Cloak... I have yet to really find a good use for it. Not saying there isn't, just it appears to be inviting a shadow as it works in this game. It has always worked to my opponents advantage when I've used it, with a single exception that I can remember.

Anyway... just my two cents. Let the flames begin.

phul wrote:To the comment about Romulans and Cloak... I have yet to really find a good use for it. Not saying there isn't, just it appears to be inviting a shadow as it works in this game. It has always worked to my opponents advantage when I've used it, with a single exception that I can remember.

I sometimes find that the best use for cloak is when fightning in terrain where, for some reason, everyone's movement is somewhat restricted i.e. asteroid fields.

What?! I hear you say - don't asteroids expose cloaked ships? No, unless you take damage from the asteroids, in which case stay clear of them.

Perhaps the major benefit is that the target you are stalking under your cloaking device is restricted in maneuver, and cannot always get his FA weapons turned round quickly enough. That was what happened in my case, anyway.

Alternative tactic to the 'Plasma Ballet'.
At about range 13 (you can vary this abit; 10 is bad, 14 is abit far) you launch 1-2 PL-S/F (personally I prefer targeting the smallest ship, where this single/dual plasma is the biggest threat). This forces the opponent (invariably per this threads implication, a direct fire, down your throat, charge! 'button masher') to do 1 of the following:
1) Charge the plasma
2) Turn and run.
3) Break the plasma target off and advance with remaining ships (this option is least apealing against a 4 ship fleet, preferable vs. 3 ship fleets).

What if he keeps coming, gets range 8 (firing overloaded photons against one ship), then HETs away? I read about this very same tactic used against plasma-chucking Orions in the 2009 tournament victory article. What if he's a Klingon and simply fires disruptors and phaser-1s through his #2 or #6 shields, then runs out the plasma (possibly knocking it down some with rear-firing phasers)? Standard disruptors aren't any better at range 8 than range 13, so the Klink is fine with exchanging fire at that range. I used to think the same way as you, Phul, but I've come to realise there are more options for the crunch player than those three.

Phul, like you I tend to see the plasma less as a killing weapon and more as a means of 'encouraging' enemy ships to move away from me, in a way that I can take adavantage of. I agree that waiting to fire plasma at range 1 or 2 (or generally overload range) is just asking for trouble. The idea isn't to exchange volleys, where the enemy clobbers you and them you hope your plasma hits. You shoot slightly earlier and force the enemy to be hit by the plasma if he wants to get to overload against you. Whilst I admit I haven't played enough games or against a wide enough number of other people to be some uber master of plasma, I have found the basic concept succesful. My gorn and romulans have both won (as described earlier) doing exactly the type of things you are noting, you either achieve a fire power edge aginst fewer enemy ships as the plasma target runs away, or follow up an entire running fleet blasting his rear with phasers.

I know I keep noting the 3 turn arming, and am aware of, and have used 2 turn Fs, but the point remains that whilst 2 turn Fs are a useful feature, to use the plasma at full (normal) power you need 3 turns, and that does bias their tactics. 2 turn Fs can be situationally very useful but it is the bigger plasma that allows you keep an enemy running those extra impulses, or has the time to catch some one against a map corner and still deal decent damage.

I note quite a few people see the cloak as being a little useless, something I can't understand. OK, Ive only played them twice, but in both games the cloak was critical to the tactics used. There is no way the roms could have sat with ~18 stingers plus motherships milling around them whilst I bided my time for a moment to uncloak a ship and kill several stingers. Against the klingons the cloak allowed me to manipulate the initial exchange position to the one I wanted, which then left them defensive and running for half the game, and then later (during the phase where I was reloading and defensive) to avoid giving up more points than I had accumulated.

The romulan force I've used twice and is still the one I like is 2 WE and 2 Snipes. Gorns I can't make up my mind on, but I think the force I used was 2 of the 160ish pt ships (can't remember which type) and a CL.

I do think that the Gorns are a bit expensive for what they are, but not because they are plasma. I would happily take most gorn ships against any similar class vessel of another race, but for some reason they usuually seem about ~10% more expensive, that adds up in a tourney and makes squadron choice awkward. I can see that roms are paying a premium for the cloak, but what are Gorn paying a premium for?

storeylf wrote:Phul, like you I tend to see the plasma less as a killing weapon and more as a means of 'encouraging' enemy ships to move away from me, in a way that I can take adavantage of. I agree that waiting to fire plasma at range 1 or 2 (or generally overload range) is just asking for trouble. The idea isn't to exchange volleys, where the enemy clobbers you and them you hope your plasma hits. You shoot slightly earlier and force the enemy to be hit by the plasma if he wants to get to overload against you. Whilst I admit I haven't played enough games or against a wide enough number of other people to be some uber master of plasma, I have found the basic concept succesful. My gorn and romulans have both won (as described earlier) doing exactly the type of things you are noting, you either achieve a fire power edge aginst fewer enemy ships as the plasma target runs away, or follow up an entire running fleet blasting his rear with phasers.

This is exactly my point. Plasma keeps them running, which is a good thing. Use it to your advantage and win.

terryoc wrote: What if he keeps coming, gets range 8 (firing overloaded photons against one ship), then HETs away?

That shoud be difficult, if you fire at range 13 then the plasma will have moved 8 by the time the opponent is within overload range, unless the plasma ship is following up right behind the plasma he should be safe, at least that is in your hands and not the other guys.

What if he's a Klingon and simply fires disruptors and phaser-1s through his #2 or #6 shields, then runs out the plasma (possibly knocking it down some with rear-firing phasers)? Standard disruptors aren't any better at range 8 than range 13, so the Klink is fine with exchanging fire at that range. I used to think the same way as you, Phul, but I've come to realise there are more options for the crunch player than those three.

At least on a tourney map, the klink struggles to safely stay at range and not be cornered. By the time you have moved to the center of the map the klink will find range 13 or so means he is already practically on a map edge.

There are certainly counters to it, but when I played against klingons with Roms I put my ships in a sort of inverted V with only the point ship (the one furthest away) uncloaking as he approached firing range. That meant the klingon had to enter the mouth of the V (to achieve the range he wanted) leaving him vulnerable to finding plasma coming in from all sides. Going for the nearer ships is not that effective as they are cloaked and the klink still lacks power for overloads or phasers.

Plasma ships are the one style of play where I think you do want to try (to some exent) to seperate your ships, as opposed to move as a 3 ship stack. Its easy to run from plasma that comes from 1 direction, less easy if any direction you choose puts you closer to a plasma. Seperating of course is very risky, as it allows you to be picked off piece meal, that is where the romulan cloak comes in. You can cloak, seperate and remain reasonably safe. Going speed 16 is an issue, but it also opens up other possibilities against an opponent going speed 24, especially if he has a worse turn mode than you. Also counter to my normal view, I reckon the romulan should sueeze in 4 ships so that against a more normal(?) 3 ship squadron you always have a ship over vs someone who tries to sit on top of cloaked ships. Clearly of course some opponents are trickier than others, ESGs for example are death incarnate to anything that cloaks.


I would also like to say that your post, and my response touches on another point I made numerous posts ago. What level of opponent is the benchmark to judge balance/viability against? Any of the tactics noted in this post, your post, or phuls post are likely to be very successful against opponents of a certain skill level, viable but beatable by another level of opponent, and fall apart against really good opponents. If we judge a weapon or tactic to be balanced/viable only if it is so at the top level of the player ability range, the sort of thing tourney finalists might be seen using, then they are probably unbalanced/unviable at more average levels, where the players don't grasp the subtleties of a weapon, or have the mind set to correctly apply it. A good analogy would be the occaissonal post you get from new players saying that the disrupters can't compete with photons, they just haven't grasped the difference in tactics required, or even when they have they struggle to actually pull it off. On the other hand if you balance around average players, then you invariably find the top/hard core players will find things unbalanced/unviable as they understand the tactics and know how to deal with them.

Regarding the comments about launching a bit early to force your opponent to take the hit or turn and run: Make sure you keep enough plasma unlaunched as a deterrent. Savvy opponents will feign a charge, you launch a bunch/or all your plasma, he turns and runs it out, then comes back in to mug you. Prevent this by keeping some torps hot in the tubes at all times. He may still come in and hurt you, but to get his shot, he has to eat some delicious plasma.
Plasma requires finesse and patience and usually they wont hit at full strength. But remember you have phasers you can whittle down his shields with. Anyway, these are some general thoughts. I have never done FC tourney, so I can't really comment there. (Never played with a short clock in FC)

storeylf wrote:Phul, like you I tend to see the plasma less as a killing weapon and more as a means of 'encouraging' enemy ships to move away from me, in a way that I can take adavantage of. I agree that waiting to fire plasma at range 1 or 2 (or generally overload range) is just asking for trouble. The idea isn't to exchange volleys, where the enemy clobbers you and them you hope your plasma hits. You shoot slightly earlier and force the enemy to be hit by the plasma if he wants to get to overload against you.

The problem, at least with Rom, is that this tactic leads to the other side winning. They say, ok, you don't want me to close? Fine I'll fire at range. Pretty much every race has a better phaser suite than Roms and their heavy weapons work perfectly well at range.

The plasma will never hit as they never get close enough and never commit to taking one on a shield to make an overload run. You scare them away to stay at range and they just shoot you with their better ranged weapons until you die. With disruptor races it's particularly nasty.

Thinking about it, strangely the decel rules are just as big of a problem for plasma as the accel rules. In SFB you could fire a leading shot at someone at moderate to long range going very fast. If you planned the shot right they wouldn't be able to turn in time. In FC they can grind power into decel and turn in place to avoid closing with the plasma.