Speed Limits and the Feel of the Scenario

[gar1138]

The argument that an acceleration limit would improve the plasma situation is interesting, and, I'll admit, one I hadn't thought of. Having given it some thought, I'm ultimately not persuaded by it.

Baseline Speed Limits would help give plasma a nudge by forcing the plasma opponent to keep their speed up so that they would have the ability to outrun plasma (conversely, if they slow down too much, the plasma force has a good opportunity). Since the plasma opponents would have to keep their speed up, they end up having less energy for weapons (arming, overloads, etc). It is just a nudge, not a huge unbalancing change for plasma (possibly a nudge is all that plasma needs?).

Also, plasma is just one of several things that get much closer to balance with the restoration of Speed Limits in FC.

One of the earlier threads that discussed it is here: http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... php?t=3417

Garrett

[mjwest]

... with the restoration of Speed Limits in FC.

This is the second time I have seen this phrase. I want to very directly point out that there is nothing to "restore". There is no "restoration". Federation Commander has never had "speed limits" (or, more properly, acceleration limits). Since it has never been part of the game, it cannot be "restored".

[The_Rock]

Yes, but it always should have had them, and it's source material does have them, so I think restore is a nice way of making the point. Sort of like when I say "Give plasma back its overload function (EPT)." Well, sure, plasma never had it in Fed Com, but everyone understands that this was a change made when moving from SFB to Fed Com just like giving every ship in the game a positron flywheel was done when porting from SFB to Fed Com.

[ericphillips]

I chose to call them "speed limits" as acceleration has a different meaning between SFB and FC. Good for clarity (unlike the overuse of turn in the rules LOL).

Again, to those who say it doesn't do much for one thing, its not about one problem, but a whole slew of them that added together make the adjustment that much better for the game.

Unfortunately, when FC was developed I was not playing SFB so I could not voice my opinion. Now its too late.

[Klingon of Gor]

Gar1138 wrote:

Baseline Speed Limits would help give plasma a nudge by forcing the plasma opponent to keep their speed up so that they would have the ability to outrun plasma (conversely, if they slow down too much, the plasma force has a good opportunity).

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday evening. The more we thought about it, the less sense it made.

I've got a plasma ship, and I'm closing in with a Fed ship on a reciprocal course. It's the end of impulse seven, and the range is 16. I fire a heavy torp, and slam on the brakes. Now he's got to deal with the torp before he gets to range 8 where his photons have a 50-50 chance to hit. He either has to turn, or take it. Either one works for me. See? Plasma races can do the same trick, but they can do it from farther away.

I wonder if you've tried playing plasma under the new edition rules. Before, you knew that you wouldn't be seeing a heavy plasma torp on turn 1. No longer. Now that big R torp may start chasing you on the very first turn of the game. It really does make a difference.

[gar1138]

Gar1138 wrote:

Baseline Speed Limits would help give plasma a nudge by forcing the plasma opponent to keep their speed up so that they would have the ability to outrun plasma (conversely, if they slow down too much, the plasma force has a good opportunity).

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday evening. The more we thought about it, the less sense it made.

I've got a plasma ship, and I'm closing in with a Fed ship on a reciprocal course. It's the end of impulse seven, and the range is 16. I fire a heavy torp, and slam on the brakes. Now he's got to deal with the torp before he gets to range 8 where his photons have a 50-50 chance to hit. He either has to turn, or take it. Either one works for me. See? Plasma races can do the same trick, but they can do it from farther away.

I wonder if you've tried playing plasma under the new edition rules. Before, you knew that you wouldn't be seeing a heavy plasma torp on turn 1. No longer. Now that big R torp may start chasing you on the very first turn of the game. It really does make a difference.

Obviously, there are a lot of variables in the above example. As a general assumption, however, by "slamming on the brakes" I'm assuming you mean that on the next turn the plasma ship is going slow (speed 8 or maybe 16?). As the opponent (and I'm just generalizing here since I don't know which Empire the opponent is), I would plot speed 24, run out the torpedo a bit to reduce the damage (if the range is 16, it wouldn't take much), then turn in to close with the plasma ship at 24+1 to get a shot. Being able to launch plasma on the start of the turn (a very good change in the new edition rules) doesn't really affect this much.

In the above scenario without Speed Limits, the plasma opponent would probably be going slower in order to charge, overload, and hold all weapons. Then they can jump up to a higher speed at any time to run out the plasma.

With Speed Limits, the plasma opponent might not have all weapons fully armed or overloaded since they need to *maintain* high speed all the time so that they have the ability to outrun a plasma launch. Conversely, if they have gone slow enough to arm/overload all weapons, they might not be able to jump back up to high speed in time to outrun the plasma, thus leaving them a little more vulnerable.

It becomes a choice for the plasma opponent: either maintain high speed or overload and hold all weapons, but it's hard to do both. As it currently stands, the plasma opponent can simply go as slow as they want to have extra energy for overloads / evasive maneuvers/ etc. Then only have to think about high speed when the plasma is actually launched.

Again, it's just a small nudge in plasma's favor (along with all the other balance factors that Speed Limits would provide), and specific situations and tactics will affect this to some degree. It doesn't make or break any game in and of itself.

Garrett

[JimDauphinais]

For what it is worth, I also support the introduction of speed limits into FC. I know Steve has said no, but I hope that over time Steve see value in reconsidering his position on this issue.

[Klingon of Gor]

As a general assumption, however, by "slamming on the brakes" I'm assuming you mean that on the next turn the plasma ship is going slow (speed 8 or maybe 16?). As the opponent (and I'm just generalizing here since I don't know which Empire the opponent is), I would plot speed 24, run out the torpedo a bit to reduce the damage (if the range is 16, it wouldn't take much), then turn in to close with the plasma ship at 24+1 to get a shot.

This turning into a discussion that probably belongs under the Tactics category. My impression is that this rules change isn't going to happen, so there's no point in arguing about it any further. We must agree to disagree, since it seems unlikely that either of us will ever persuade the other.

In the example I gave, I specified that the opponent was Feds. Yes, there are variables, but I specified a Fed on a reciprocal course. Maybe he runs the plasma out, maybe not. But if he's holding photons, overloads especially, his reserve power is limited. And when I say "slam on the brakes", I mean emergency decel, to open some distance between me and my torp, and next turn I firewall the engines and go after him.

I think the best idea I've heard to date in this thread is storyelf's suggestion that a larger playing area might help. Generally, our games are on the large hex boards, and if we're playing a squadron agme, it's four boards wide by five deep Not regulation, but easier on my aging eyes.

[storeylf]

Because it is not the end of the game. Taking a range 8 shot, even with 12 photons, involves some risk. If you give me enough room so that I don't have to slow down too much on reload turns, I can extend the reloading of full overloads over 3 or more turns. I can then increase my risk profile on the initial exchange.

Let's assume I have 2 NCA and a CS and I am facing a Kzinti with CC and 2NCAs. Under normal tournament conditions, I would get to R8 and target everything on the CC, pretty much ensuring its destruction. If you double the size of the map, I would definitely fire at two ships (splitting one of the ship's fire over two targets). That would result in a spread of games where the median result was two badly damaged cruisers, with some tail results seeing one or two largely uninjured ships and the other tail seeing one or two nearly destroyed ships.

On a single map, I cannot afford that risk profile. On a double sized map (or even better - an open map) I can.

The exchange for that is sustaining EM shifted disruptor fire for several turns while closing with the overloads. that is an easy exchange to make.

I was trying to arrange a game with Paul, as I'm intrigued by his assertion. But that seems to have fallen through, at least for a couple of weeks. I'd still like to play a similiar game with him when we can arrange a date.

I just don't see this. Take the floating map - where you think the Feds are even better. The NCAs are holding overloads (8 ) under EM (6) leaving 24 (and 4 batteries for a while). You are pursuinig someone who is holding nothing is not under EM and can fire large numbers of drones at you. The drones alone are going to cause problems as you have no power to shoot them, are under EM and lack acceleration to bypass them, and the fact that the kzinti can keep pulling several hexes out each turn will allow them to also keep turning back in (the drones may well allow that anyway). Holding overloads and running under EM just seems an almost guaranteed loss as far as I can see.

I've played several games with Feds on floating maps, and as long as the othe guy is happy to patiently play to the Fed weakness then holding overloads is not usually good. which in turn makes the speed 0/8 an dump overloads a less useful strategy.

[The_Rock]

We'll get teh game scheduled. I just can't play today and you can't play next week. the following week I am sure it will happen.

[gar1138]

In the example I gave, I specified that the opponent was Feds.

Errr, yeah..... Sorry I missed that.

Garrett

[storeylf]

We'll get teh game scheduled. I just can't play today and you can't play next week. the following week I am sure it will happen.

I look forward to it (and any re-matches)

[duxvolantis]

Gar1138 wrote:

Baseline Speed Limits would help give plasma a nudge by forcing the plasma opponent to keep their speed up so that they would have the ability to outrun plasma (conversely, if they slow down too much, the plasma force has a good opportunity).

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday evening. The more we thought about it, the less sense it made.

It makes immense sense.

Against crunch races a plasma chucker has to be patient and wait for a mistake. In SFB one of those mistakes was to plot a low speed to rearm. Emergency decel was the kiss of death. In a duel a ship that performed ED against a skilled plasma captain usually died within 2 turns.

That risk is entirely missing in FC as are the other side-effects of forcing a higher base speed: if the Fed must keep speed at 24 it reduces his ability to rearm photons and fire that spiffy phaser array every turn. The same generally applies to any ships with expensive re-arms (Hydrans, Lyrans to a lesser extent).

The reason it is different for a plasma ship is that speed is a valid defense against plasma moreso than any other heavy weapon as you can simply outrun the plasma any time you choose to turn and run. Therefore any game mechanic that makes it easier for the enemy to go fast when they need to hurts plasma.

[storeylf]

Against crunch races a plasma chucker has to be patient and wait for a mistake. In SFB one of those mistakes was to plot a low speed to rearm. Emergency decel was the kiss of death. In a duel a ship that performed ED against a skilled plasma captain usually died within 2 turns.

Surely you do not advoctate such a plan. Were you not one of those who look down on any plan that relies on the other guy making a mistake:

However you have a plan that relies on the Hydran player being stupid.

That risk is entirely missing in FC as are the other side-effects of forcing a higher base speed: if the Fed must keep speed at 24 it reduces his ability to rearm photons and fire that spiffy phaser array every turn. The same generally applies to any ships with expensive re-arms (Hydrans, Lyrans to a lesser extent).

The speed change will only kick in if you go speed 8. That is pretty rare for the likes of hydrans, the Hellbore has no cheap hold cost, there is no great benefit from slowing down to speed 8 to rearm, and they need speed to get close to the enemy. Fusions are a power on demand, and are in need of speed to close even more than hellbores. Slowing down to speed 8 for anyone in a plasma game is pretty rare.


From what I remember of SFB, the big difference is that the acceleration affect will kick in across a large range of speeds that almost anyone may realistically actually be likely to do. The proposal here is a rule that will affect just a small handful of so called problems. The cost of extra rules and the affect it has on the playstyle of the game is just not worth it. I'm not interested in the extra record keeping or pondering through the affect my speed now has on next turn, it's just not FedCom. For hard core wargamers/competitive gamers after that level of detail we have SFB.

[storeylf]

Slowing down to speed 8 for anyone in a plasma game is pretty rare.

I was pondering this whilst out this morning. How common is even the Fed speed 8 and dump overload on turn 1. I couldn't think of a single game either locally, PBEM, or online where anyone has done that to me. I have no doubt the likes of Paul and Patrick and a few other top tourney players do it, but I've not played against anyone who has done it that I can remember. I'm the only person to have used that tactic in the games I've played, and we simply addressed that locally by opening up the map.

No one has ever ED'd on me in the way some are saying is a problem (actually I'm not sure I've ever seen more than a couple of ED uses).

Plasma has had at least (and maybe greater than) a 50% success rate in the games I've been in. Far from the plasma is doomed expectation that is expressed in these forums.

Obviously that is only anecdotal evidence, and Paul etc may have different experiences, I don't exactly play against top tourney players all the time. But even amongst their experiences how many of the above so called problems happen only when that other person is a top (probably tourney) player, and how often does it happen amongst the vast majority of not so top players.

Yet again I feel as though we are talking about something that is supposed to 'balance' the game, but is really only addressing an imbalance that a small minority of fairly hardcore/competitive players actually experience, and often because they playing tournaments with its very limiting paramters. These isssues are probably not really that much of a problem for the majority of players.

I would be interested in hearing who ADB believe the game is positioned for nowadays, certainly when I bought the game it seemed pretty well aimed at a different crowd than such grognards, if such players did pick up FedCom then they were to hopefully move onto SFB.

anyone who finds Federation Commander to be less than challenging can move into the existing Star Fleet Battles product line

We have designed Federation Commander to stay at the complexity level it starts at.

I was also pondering the SFB tourney, or what I know of it. Is it not the case that even with all the SFB stuff that the tourney still has its own seperate rule set (or subset of SFB) and its own special ships beacause for those who play the tourney the normal SFB rules and ships are not balanced enough.