Federation Commander

DirkSJ wrote:

storeylf wrote:Phul, like you I tend to see the plasma less as a killing weapon and more as a means of 'encouraging' enemy ships to move away from me, in a way that I can take adavantage of. I agree that waiting to fire plasma at range 1 or 2 (or generally overload range) is just asking for trouble. The idea isn't to exchange volleys, where the enemy clobbers you and them you hope your plasma hits. You shoot slightly earlier and force the enemy to be hit by the plasma if he wants to get to overload against you.

The problem, at least with Rom, is that this tactic leads to the other side winning. They say, ok, you don't want me to close? Fine I'll fire at range. Pretty much every race has a better phaser suite than Roms and their heavy weapons work perfectly well at range.

The plasma will never hit as they never get close enough and never commit to taking one on a shield to make an overload run. You scare them away to stay at range and they just shoot you with their better ranged weapons until you die. With disruptor races it's particularly nasty.

Thinking about it, strangely the decel rules are just as big of a problem for plasma as the accel rules. In SFB you could fire a leading shot at someone at moderate to long range going very fast. If you planned the shot right they wouldn't be able to turn in time. In FC they can grind power into decel and turn in place to avoid closing with the plasma.

There are so many ways to go in response to this post, to Storyelf's points (not implying you don't see them).

Speaking from a Rom perspective, as I said I don't care for the gorn and am not really familiar with their ships, a late war fleet is perfect for chasing a runner (even a saber dancer). The fleet I described above had 5 batteries per ship, and 4-6 phasor 1s per ship looking FA. They also had a pretty large energy pool. Most direct fire ship, dont' have enough looking back to make running from a late war Rom fleet viable (Klingons are pretty horrible out the RA facing at range, and barely notable in the middle range). Lyrans are abit more problematic in this situation (running/saber dancing) as they tend to have more LS/RS P1s than klingons... I'd give even odds on that. In either case, realize that if you're running at 24 / 24+1, you're not doing much else in the class sizes we're talking about. It's cheaper to fire phasors at you and battery the difference than it is to fire disruptors back (not to mention shield disparities).

If talking a tourney map, Saber/Runners are going to run out of space in t2, and then they lose the option of running, with a plasma fleet chasing them. A situation that imo is to the plasma players advantage.

As a side note, I've put most the ships into spreadsheets to have a look at their direct fire potentials. You'd be surprised what the damage curves look like in certain arcs for some races.

A Kzinti fleet would slaughter the Romulans.

The DNH, 2 DW fleet can have 16 drones launched in impulse 8 followed by 8 drones in impulse 1. The NCC, 2 NCA fleet can have 12 + 8 drones in the air at once. Both fleets have enough drones to soak up all Rom phasers and/or force them to run away. They have plenty of power to go 24+1 and still fire weapons.

If the Roms launch a couple of PLS, they can easily either stay at range and plink away with disrupters, or break off the target ship and *still* have direct fire weapon superiority over the Roms once you account for the phasers needed to take out drones.

I don't like the Rom chances at all vs either Kzinti tournament fleet, especially with a tournament time limit that minimizes the need for drone reloads.

phul wrote:

DirkSJ wrote:

storeylf wrote:Phul, like you I tend to see the plasma less as a killing weapon and more as a means of 'encouraging' enemy ships to move away from me, in a way that I can take adavantage of. I agree that waiting to fire plasma at range 1 or 2 (or generally overload range) is just asking for trouble. The idea isn't to exchange volleys, where the enemy clobbers you and them you hope your plasma hits. You shoot slightly earlier and force the enemy to be hit by the plasma if he wants to get to overload against you.

The problem, at least with Rom, is that this tactic leads to the other side winning. They say, ok, you don't want me to close? Fine I'll fire at range. Pretty much every race has a better phaser suite than Roms and their heavy weapons work perfectly well at range.

The plasma will never hit as they never get close enough and never commit to taking one on a shield to make an overload run. You scare them away to stay at range and they just shoot you with their better ranged weapons until you die. With disruptor races it's particularly nasty.

Thinking about it, strangely the decel rules are just as big of a problem for plasma as the accel rules. In SFB you could fire a leading shot at someone at moderate to long range going very fast. If you planned the shot right they wouldn't be able to turn in time. In FC they can grind power into decel and turn in place to avoid closing with the plasma.

There are so many ways to go in response to this post, to Storyelf's points (not implying you don't see them).

Speaking from a Rom perspective, as I said I don't care for the gorn and am not really familiar with their ships, a late war fleet is perfect for chasing a runner (even a saber dancer). The fleet I described above had 5 batteries per ship, and 4-6 phasor 1s per ship looking FA. They also had a pretty large energy pool. Most direct fire ship, dont' have enough looking back to make running from a late war Rom fleet viable (Klingons are pretty horrible out the RA facing at range, and barely notable in the middle range). Lyrans are abit more problematic in this situation (running/saber dancing) as they tend to have more LS/RS P1s than klingons... I'd give even odds on that. In either case, realize that if you're running at 24 / 24+1, you're not doing much else in the class sizes we're talking about. It's cheaper to fire phasors at you and battery the difference than it is to fire disruptors back (not to mention shield disparities).

If talking a tourney map, Saber/Runners are going to run out of space in t2, and then they lose the option of running, with a plasma fleet chasing them. A situation that imo is to the plasma players advantage.

As a side note, I've put most the ships into spreadsheets to have a look at their direct fire potentials. You'd be surprised what the damage curves look like in certain arcs for some races.

Klingons have a bad FA Arc? Sure but their Rear Oblique is Incredible they can hit with 3 P1's and 4 P2's that is that is acctually better then their Front Oblique and Centerline. Also that fact that the Rom's are taking shots at the Klingon number 4 while The Klingons are shooting at the Romulans Number 1 is a nice bonus.

The Lyrans do have a pretty bad RA

As far as late war ships are you comparing the battlecruiser (FIREHAWK)
to CA's and D7's? and I think the Sparrowhawk is the Romulan NCA as per SVC but I can't find the thread where he says the Firehawk is the BC. So in a fleet battle the Best you can get is (2 FH's and a Skyhawk) 16 P1's out your FA while the Feds can Fire (with two nca's and a cs) 12 P1's with 6 more within a couple of sideslips to the RS or LS arcs). and as Storyelf said here
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... wk+romulan

Storyelf - "The romulan is a fairly scary close range fighter - good phaser 1s and 4 plasmas. Whilst plasma may be readily avoidable if you are ready for it, it is certainly hugely better firing plasma at short range than longer range. The romulan offensive fire power drops quite rapidly beyond about range 5.

Staying at 9-15 throwing out 2 HB a turn is not spectacular, but, you can do that whilst doing speed 31 if needed. The rom can't close the range, hold S, reinforce the damage and fire phasers. Whilst the first shots will be allocated where the rom wants, after a couple of volleys he'll find it increasingly difficult to stop him self having a weaker shield. Whilst the rom can do roughly similar amounts of damage with his phasers at that range, the hydran eventually has more control over the shield they hit and once you have the rom with a clearly weaker shield you are in a better position to move to a closer range with overloaded HBs. If done properly you will be turning back towards a closer fight with no front half shield damage, and him with no where to turn that can avoid the hellbores hitting a weakened shield. In other words you are sort of back in the start of the game closing in on each other, but with an advantage you didn't have originally. "

The Sparrowhawk is most definitely a war cruiser.

The Firehawk is like a New Heavy Cruiser, but is the Romulans only real time production heavy cruiser.

The Novahawk is a Battlecruiser (though a bit smaller than those of other empires).

The Romulans are just weird. They took three tries to get the fleet they wanted and even then, it doesn't really match any of their opponents tit-for-tat.

The giant robot is fundamentally correct.
The Sparrowhawk is a light cruiser. It is comparable to the other empires' war cruisers.
The Firehawk is a new heavy cruiser. It is comparable to the other empires' heavy and new heavy cruisers.
The Novahawk is a command cruiser. It must also fill the heavy battlecruiser role, though it is a bit of a stretch.

Savedfromwhat wrote:
Klingons have a bad FA Arc?

he said they have bad RA.

Sure but their Rear Oblique is Incredible they can hit with 3 P1's and 4 P2's that is that is acctually better then their Front Oblique and Centerline. Also that fact that the Rom's are taking shots at the Klingon number 4 while The Klingons are shooting at the Romulans Number 1 is a nice bonus.

Forcing someone on to the rear oblique is not easy when also running from plasma if they don't want to be there. They only have to keep slightly behind that oblique and it requires decels to try and force them forward onto it, that allows the plasma to close with no guarantee the plasma ship won't just decel as well.

As far as late war ships are you comparing the battlecruiser (FIREHAWK)
to CA's and D7's? and I think the Sparrowhawk is the Romulan NCA as per SVC but I can't find the thread where he says the Firehawk is the BC. So in a fleet battle the Best you can get is (2 FH's and a Skyhawk) 16 P1's out your FA while the Feds can Fire (with two nca's and a cs) 12 P1's with 6 more within a couple of sideslips to the RS or LS arcs). and as

Whether it is NCA or CA isn't relevant, FC isn't like SFB where you choose based on some historical timeline. Certainly for the tourney, FC is just pick your fleet based on points, there is no real concept of ship dates and timelines etc. Your're right the Fed could choose those ships, but Phul has also said what roms he choose, and it wasn't the ones you note. The feds may have the phasers, but can they outrun plasma at 24+, hold/arm any photons and actually use all those phasers? I've also played turn mode D ships running at 24+ from plasma, it's painful on a tourney map. You quickly hit map edge then map corner, unless you use your HET (if you haven't already) then there may as well be neon lights highlighting your route for several impulses, that end in a sign saying 'intercept me here'.

Storyelf said here
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... wk+romulan
..

In the context of that thread (trying to suggest alternate tactics for a hydran who took 2 point blank plasmas on the first pass and conceded just after) I'd stand by pretty much most of what I said then. Of course from the other angle I could also point out issues that following those tactics will encounter. Map edges, cloaks, avoiding the ranged waggle etc.

As I said in my earlier post... 1 Firehawk (179) and 2 SparrowHawk (2x135) is a valid tourney fleet of 449 points. So I am comparing valid 3 ship combo to counterpart valid 3 ship combos (a Klingon choice could be 1 DWL & 2 D7)

Savedfromwhat wrote: Klingons have a bad FA Arc? Sure but their Rear Oblique is Incredible they can hit with 3 P1's and 4 P2's that is that is acctually better then their Front Oblique and Centerline. Also that fact that the Rom's are taking shots at the Klingon number 4 while The Klingons are shooting at the Romulans Number 1 is a nice bonus.

With the 2 fleets I just noted, at range 9-15...
RA kling vs. FA Rom
Rom: 14 P1 = average 14 damage. (14 energy)
Kling: 14 P2s, 4P1s = average 13.33 (14*.67 + 4) (18 energy)
Note: The Klingon number halves off centerline while the Rom does not change.

Using the weapons out the rear oblique you used... using an FA/R or FA/L for the Rom to make the comparison more 'valid'...
RA/L kling vs FA/L Rom
Rom: 17 P1 = average 17 damage. (17 energy)
Kling: 10 P2s, 12 P1s = 16.33 damage. (22 energy)
Note: This is a rarer situation as both ships require being down the hexline.

The Rom is superior in both cases, and more efficient (allowing for the unspent energy to be used to battery for it's shields, which are already 40-50% larger).

That was sort of off topic, but my point is that as the Romulan, I'd be okay with the klingon's running. I think I'll win that scenario in phasor fire, and when they run out of space to run, I'll finish with Plasma. Again, opponent actions and specific situation will cause this to vary... also, bad/good rolls can have a huge impact at 9-15. I calculated based on averages of the damage table.

As for the vs. Hydran conversation, I haven't put any serious thought into it as of yet. I'm the only person in my group who goes out of his way to play hydrans, and my opponenets tend to not play Plasma either. Generally, I like HB Hydrans more than any other race... but topically, I can't think of any reason they they wouldnt' be even more susseptible to the tactic I described in my prior post, since they are more heavy on P3/PG, for rear facing, with their P1/P2 compliment typically FA + R/L. Running for them (again talking tourney map) I think would be pure suicide. HB are almost 100% FA from what I can remember... that means charging a chasing Rom fleet... with 2 turn arming (and the plasma fleet should have most it's plasma ready at that moment). Also, the dynamics of hellbore usuage kinda lend themselves to a 2 impulse firing pattern (imp 1 fire phasers, imp 2 fire HB on the newly created 'weakest' shield). Could talk for quite awhile on that point, but it's off topic of this thread...

My original point...
Was in response to MJWest's concern that there was only 1 valid tactic for Plasma, and that it was the 'plasma balet', which is unfeasible for tourney play, as the tourney is currently set up. I do not believe this is the case.... and I think Plasma is just fine the way it is. Just requires abit more finesse than other H. weapons (just as I think Hellbores require abit of finesse to be used 'properly').

As a side note, I'll actually be playing that Rom fleet I mention in the post just prior to this against the Tourney winning fleet for this year (Lyrans, yay!) later tonight against a very competent klingon/lyran player (imo). So... I'll have some more fuel for the fire tonight/tomorrow.

Savedfromwhat wrote:

storeylf wrote:
Klingons have a bad FA Arc?

he said they have bad RA.[

I meant RA.

storeylf wrote:

Savedfromwhat wrote: Sure but their Rear Oblique is Incredible they can hit with 3 P1's and 4 P2's that is that is acctually better then their Front Oblique and Centerline. Also that fact that the Rom's are taking shots at the Klingon number 4 while The Klingons are shooting at the Romulans Number 1 is a nice bonus.

Forcing someone on to the rear oblique is not easy when also running from plasma if they don't want to be there. They only have to keep slightly behind that oblique and it requires decels to try and force them forward onto it, that allows the plasma to close with no guarantee the plasma ship won't just decel as well.

Fortunately they do still have 6 rear firing phaser twos and can turn to bring their FX p1's into arc rather easily.

storeylf wrote:

Savedfromwhat wrote: As far as late war ships are you comparing the battlecruiser (FIREHAWK)
to CA's and D7's? and I think the Sparrowhawk is the Romulan NCA as per SVC but I can't find the thread where he says the Firehawk is the BC. So in a fleet battle the Best you can get is (2 FH's and a Skyhawk) 16 P1's out your FA while the Feds can Fire (with two nca's and a cs) 12 P1's with 6 more within a couple of sideslips to the RS or LS arcs). and as

Whether it is NCA or CA isn't relevant, FC isn't like SFB where you choose based on some historical timeline. Certainly for the tourney, FC is just pick your fleet based on points, there is no real concept of ship dates and timelines etc. Your're right the Fed could choose those ships, but Phul has also said what roms he choose, and it wasn't the ones you note. The feds may have the phasers, but can they outrun plasma at 24+, hold/arm any photons and actually use all those phasers? I've also played turn mode D ships running at 24+ from plasma, it's painful on a tourney map. You quickly hit map edge then map corner, unless you use your HET (if you haven't already) then there may as well be neon lights highlighting your route for several impulses, that end in a sign saying 'intercept me here'.

Storyelf as the Fleet I chose acctually has two more Front Firing Phasers then Phuls I don't see what point you are trying to make here. And My contention (which I was incorrect about) that Firehawks are BC's was also not even pertinant to what I was trying to say sorry I brought it up, it can be ignored. Also Feds are not required to Arm Photons, and as far as map edge goes Well I guess we will just have to play it to find out won't we

storeylf wrote:

Savedfromwhat wrote: Storyelf said here
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federatio ... wk+romulan
..

In the context of that thread (trying to suggest alternate tactics for a hydran who took 2 point blank plasmas on the first pass and conceded just after) I'd stand by pretty much most of what I said then. Of course from the other angle I could also point out issues that following those tactics will encounter. Map edges, cloaks, avoiding the ranged waggle etc.

Are you really going to push this as a valid tactic for the Hydrans but not for the Feds with their superior Phaser Suites? Why not just not load your photons and DO the same tactic against the Romulans with the Federation.
BUT... as you said in that thread the Feds might as well because the Romulan Offensive Capability drastically falls off at range 5. And you were playing an opponent that went speed 16 when you asserted that point.

Phul a fight with the Romulans Verses the Klingons, Lyrans, or Gorn I agree would be much fairer then against the Feds, Kzinti, LDR, Wyn, Orion, Hydran, or Tholian. I haven't tried tham Against Vudar, Andro, or ISC yet so I can't comment.

But saying the Romulans have a better chance against two similar races is not a very good assesment. Klingons as opposed to the Lyrans have a much better chance at getting their FX phasers into range while still outrunning plasma and using Drones to Hamper your chace. I still think they have a great chance.

And the Hydran tactics against plasma are not off topic due to the nature of the discussion.

Will you be playing online and if so what Time I would like to watch the game.

No Klingon in his right mind is taking a D7 to a sabre dance, unless he has no other choice. Doesn't work right. If you want to sabre dance as a Klingon, then take some combination of the following ships: C7, DWL, D5W, D5. (I'll let you run the numbers to get the right combo.) Those are the ships that were designed to execute the sabre dance.

mojo jojo wrote:A Kzinti fleet would slaughter the Romulans.

The DNH, 2 DW fleet can have 16 drones launched in impulse 8 followed by 8 drones in impulse 1. The NCC, 2 NCA fleet can have 12 + 8 drones in the air at once. Both fleets have enough drones to soak up all Rom phasers and/or force them to run away. They have plenty of power to go 24+1 and still fire weapons.

If the Roms launch a couple of PLS, they can easily either stay at range and plink away with disrupters, or break off the target ship and *still* have direct fire weapon superiority over the Roms once you account for the phasers needed to take out drones.

I don't like the Rom chances at all vs either Kzinti tournament fleet, especially with a tournament time limit that minimizes the need for drone reloads.

I would agree that a Kzinti fleet poses more of a threat, but given that there's an assumption that the Kzinti fleet is moving 24/24+1, I'd expect the Rom/Gorn to be doing the same. Drones are fairly easy to just negate (rather than shooting them down) by manuever. Especially when you've got the speed advantage. Also, Rom late wars are a little more phasor heavy than people seem to be giving them credit for. 12 p3's in the fleet I would use.

Well don't forget we don't have aegis so you can't guarantee you will sweep those Drones, also heading right at drones is not super easy to avoid, it will give the Kzinti player a screen to hide behind. That is also 6 power Kzinti gets from you for spending none and the Drone Fleet I am flying can have 16 Drones on the table up to 24 at once.

mjwest wrote:No Klingon in his right mind is taking a D7 to a sabre dance, unless he has no other choice. Doesn't work right. If you want to sabre dance as a Klingon, then take some combination of the following ships: C7, DWL, D5W, D5. (I'll let you run the numbers to get the right combo.) Those are the ships that were designed to execute the sabre dance.

./agree

Didn't think D7's looked like a good saber dance ship due to FA Disr... but regardless, running or sabering... the math works similar. 24/24+1 on ships this size means, you're firing Disr, or phasors. Not all of both. Disr at 9-15 are 3 damage, or 1.5 damage per energy, with a .66 chance to hit... or on average, the same average damage potential as a 2 P1s, at the same price (so its really just a question of if you like rolling 1 die or 2 dice - given the choice, I'd take 2 P1s, as max damage is 6 vs. 3).

Klingon fleet choices are tough with the limitation of no more than 2 of a kind. DWL at 166, D5W at 148, C7 192, D5 118. The 1 big 2 smaller is sorta nice, except the C7 has a TM:C makes those board edges painful.

savedfromwhat wrote: Storyelf as the Fleet I chose acctually has two more Front Firing Phasers then Phuls I don't see what point you are trying to make here. And My contention (which I was incorrect about) that Firehawks are BC's was also not even pertinant to what I was trying to say sorry I brought it up, it can be ignored. Also Feds are not required to Arm Photons, and as far as map edge goes Well I guess we will just have to play it to find out won't we

Sorry, wasn't able to find where you actually said what fleet you were using, so I was using a guess based on points. Happy to redo the math based on what fleet you actually would choose.

As for the game tonight... it's a f2f engagement, so I won't be playing online. Sorry.