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Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:08 pm
by Soggy_Crackers
Could the second bit above be changed to any change in base speed causes a recalculation of the first bit. That allows for speed changes over the turn break, or any other odd scenarios that crop up.
Based on the proposal I think this needs to be included as well, as it allows for more tactical options for the Rom. Either that and/or let a cloaked ship pay to deacelerate to speed 8 for an impusle to move into the new range bracket for drops.
If not, I think the range for speed 16 is too restrictive and should be increased to 10 or 16. IMO if the cloak is used after launching (or bolting at range 10) there are too many situations where an opponent will be able to get a drone into range 8 before you are fully cloaked and we are back to the same problem again where it can't be used in that situation.
Or I think this would work out as well (for the same reasons as story) and add 24 speed bracket of 16:
Speed 24 cloaks should be ok IMO, whilst I don't mind the speed 16 part to much, the power drain in itself would go a long way to balancing speed 24 and cloaked.
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:50 pm
by Kang
Sneaky Scot wrote:I loike the idea.....
Steve, I have to say that I think you are adopting the Gloucestershire accent....
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:53 pm
by Kang
The_Rock wrote:My thoughts are that while I agree there should be no speed restrictions, I am not really fussed about it. Let me go to SFB functionality to explain why.
Why does a Cloaked ship need to be able to move fast while under cloak? To prevent an enemy from just sitting on him.
Does this work in SFB? Yes, but not just because the cloaked ship can go fast. SFB has two distinctions that are relevant to cloaked speed.
1. Paying to cloak for 1 impulse costs the same as paying for 32. In this way, the cost of cloaking is a significant driver on maximum speed. Fed Com's two rules (once the ridiculous voiding rules are changed): Base Speed 16 and pay for 4 impulses at minimum, help simulate these restrictions in SFB. Remember, you can go 16+1, you just void the cloak that impulse (under Mike's changes).
2. Everyone is less flexible in their movement options. What allows a Fed Com opponent to just sit on a cloaked target is the general movement rules. This would be true at any allowed cloak speed (except, yes, 16+1 not voiding would allow escape from Hydran fighters). If you and your opponent are both base 16, and he is sitting on you, there is really nothing you can do to change that. The ability for every ship to go +1 as me too and to pay for unlimited deceleration means you are going to be stuck. Changing the rule to allow 16+1 to not void would not change that situation. So there is really no point in fighting it.
If you want to escape, your key in Fed Com is having a better turn mode. Unfortunately, all the good Romulan Ships (there are only two) are TM D. So I think that is a situation you will just needs to live with.
I've included The Rock's original quote to provide a context for my idea. It's a simple but novel idea that might well have the effect that he's looking for.
Speed considerations aside, may I suggest that a cloaked ship moves last in any given movement sub-pulse.
This can be techno-babble explained by saying that the enemy ship cannot see which way the cloaked ship's bows are swinging or whatever; remember that cloaking allows the general position of the ship to be known but not an awful lot of detail.
Letting the cloaked ship move after all other ships in its sub-pulse would simulate this uncertainty rather nicely, as well as allowing the cloaked ship a chance to escape from directly 'under' a pursuer due to the change of initiative.
You could also allow a cloaked ship to choose its accelerations secretly and have a simultaneous reveal on accelerations - perhaps using the cards in
Orion Attack - like we already do during the Baseline Speed phase at the start of the turn.
This would also tie in rather well, technologically speaking, with my earlier idea about not allowing targeted damage on a cloaked ship.
How does all that sound?
Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 7:21 pm
by The_Rock
I think that Mike's changes address the two most significant problems with cloak and that we should get them approved by SVC and then see if, as I suspect will be the case, that resolves the problems by making cloak viable and worth the large point value paid for it by Romulan ships. If it isn't, then we should start looking at additional problems, and, yes, then I think something along your "cloaked ships move last" is viable.
I don't like your other suggestions just because they go against the pull of Fed Com by making things secret.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:06 pm
by terryoc
I like the idea of the cloaked ship moving last. Secret acceleration... adds a bit of overhead but may be necessary.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 3:38 pm
by Kang
Plus of course if the cloaked ship moves last, it could also decelerate too without its pursuer being able to respond in kind.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 4:12 pm
by storeylf
I'm not in favor of the the addition of secrecy.
For the moment I'm happy to playtest what has been suggested and see how it goes.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:06 pm
by Monty
Moving last makes a lot of sense and there's no hidden orders to deal with.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:09 pm
by ncrcalamine
I like a
The idea of cloaked ships moving last also
Nicole
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 9:52 pm
by mjwest
I would really like to see how the suggested changes pan out before adding to the changes. Especially something that is brand new, as opposed to based on how it works in SFB.
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:53 pm
by Savedfromwhat
Mike have you spoken to SVC? Would it be possible to have a new thread with the current proposed changes we should be testing?
Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:01 pm
by mjwest
No. I have not talked with SVC about this. I wanted to have a little more information (i.e. some playtests) first. That said, he does read this forum, and its traffic is so low it is trivial for him to keep up. I would be beyond shocked if he has not yet read this thread.
I can create a new thread easily enough, if it will help the discussion.
Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:33 am
by Klingon of Gor
Here's another suggestion on the cloak. My opponent, (Dave P here on the forum) suggested that any enhancements to cloak should be Romulan only, since otherwise they potentially benefit the Orions, and the Orions don't really need any help. Thoughts?
Posted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:50 am
by mjwest
Cloak is cloak. Any cloaking benefits will apply to any cloak user, whether it be Romulan, Orion, Frax, or whomever.
Posted: Wed May 23, 2012 12:01 am
by Klingon of Gor
mjwest wrote:
I would really like to see how the suggested changes pan out before adding to the changes. Especially something that is brand new, as opposed to based on how it works in SFB.
I find this answer reassuring. Test one change at a time. Know from playtest something about the effects of change A before proceeding to institute change B