Faster plasma?

[Savedfromwhat]

Also with a sparrowhawk if you burn all but one of your batteries you have enough power to go 24+1 and fire all your phasers for a whole turn (on a holding turn not an arming turn). On the Loading turn of course you would use all your batteries and only be able to accelerate for 6 impulses and next turn for 3 impulses.

The Fed NCA on the other hand (which I would have the same amount of these as you do Sparrowhawks) can go 24+1 all turn can do the same thing only once its batteries are gone it can still accellerate for 5 impulses whilst firing all phasers.

and on a side note I have never Fired 6 Phaser 1's whilst flying at speed 24+1, I have also never fired 8 Phaser 1's whilst flying at speed 24+1, and yes there is a spot on a Federation ship where if you shoot it it's saucer section will explode.

[phul]

Also with a sparrowhawk if you burn all but one of your batteries you have enough power to go 24+1 and fire all your phasers for a whole turn (on a holding turn not an arming turn). On the Loading turn of course you would use all your batteries and only be able to accelerate for 6 impulses and next turn for 3 impulses.

The assumption there is that I care if you fly 1 hex faster than me away from me. On a fixed map, I'm more than likely not going to. I can still cut you off going slower. For every 2 hexes you are away from me, that's 1 hex slower I can move and still cut you off in the corner.

[Savedfromwhat]

But each hex you don't accellerate is one less that I don't have to accellerate and that is of course assuming you have fired plasma that will force me to run and you aren't rearming it.

[storeylf]

As far as late war ships are you comparing the battlecruiser (FIREHAWK)
to CA's and D7's? and I think the Sparrowhawk is the Romulan NCA as per SVC but I can't find the thread where he says the Firehawk is the BC. So in a fleet battle the Best you can get is (2 FH's and a Skyhawk) 16 P1's out your FA while the Feds can Fire (with two nca's and a cs) 12 P1's with 6 more within a couple of sideslips to the RS or LS arcs). and as

Whether it is NCA or CA isn't relevant, FC isn't like SFB where you choose based on some historical timeline. Certainly for the tourney, FC is just pick your fleet based on points, there is no real concept of ship dates and timelines etc. Your're right the Fed could choose those ships, but Phul has also said what roms he choose, and it wasn't the ones you note. The feds may have the phasers, but can they outrun plasma at 24+, hold/arm any photons and actually use all those phasers? I've also played turn mode D ships running at 24+ from plasma, it's painful on a tourney map. You quickly hit map edge then map corner, unless you use your HET (if you haven't already) then there may as well be neon lights highlighting your route for several impulses, that end in a sign saying 'intercept me here'.

Storyelf as the Fleet I chose acctually has two more Front Firing Phasers then Phuls I don't see what point you are trying to make here.

The point I'm making was that you were responding to Phul talking about a Rom fleet chasing a fleet running from plasma, and what weapons they would have to fire backwards with compared to what phasers he could bring to bear. The fact that you have more phasers out the front was not really meangingful in that context. Neither does having extra phasers help if you lack power for them. Depending on how many impulses you need to do 24+ the fed NCAs (assuming they are paying 4 to hold standard photons) may be down to just 2 spare power (barring batteries).

Also Feds are not required to Arm Photons,

Certainly correct, but um yes, that would change an awful lot of the discussion - starting with bit about trying to prevent the enemy getting into overload range in the first place.

and as far as map edge goes Well I guess we will just have to play it to find out won't we

Well actually we won't, unless you want to come out my way, then i'll happily play as many games as you want (and the wife will allow). However, I have had experience of map edge > corner, bad turn mode, plasma incoming and ships ready to launch more. It aint nice.

In the context of that thread (trying to suggest alternate tactics for a hydran who took 2 point blank plasmas on the first pass and conceded just after) I'd stand by pretty much most of what I said then. Of course from the other angle I could also point out issues that following those tactics will encounter. Map edges, cloaks, avoiding the ranged waggle etc.

Are you really going to push this as a valid tactic for the Hydrans but not for the Feds with their superior Phaser Suites? Why not just not load your photons and DO the same tactic against the Romulans with the Federation.
BUT... as you said in that thread the Feds might as well because the Romulan Offensive Capability drastically falls off at range 5. And you were playing an opponent that went speed 16 when you asserted that point.

Um - maybe you need to take in a few other bits:

Personally, given the relative strengths and weaknesses of the ships I'm not sure why the Hydran closed in so fast.

This was a very specific natchup, 1 vs 1 duel, dragoon vs Firehawk. The comment was aimed at the hydran player who failed to avoid 2 point blank plasma launches at the first pass, the romulan seemed to know how to look after himself. It was not a general thesis on how to deal with romulans.

Everyones fire power diminshes over range, most fall of drastically at some point, it was the relative capabilities I was gettig at. The point being that the Rom drops of after 5 (accounting for phasers and bolting brackets basically, and the longer reaction time for launched plasma) whilst the Dragoon is armed with a fantastic long range weapon. As a generalisation that doesn't mean a Rom will lose simply cos you avoid range 5 or less. Klingon fire power is greatly less at range 15 than range 1, but they are often best at fighting at range 15.

The Fed can't maintain any specific range whilst using FA heavies, the dragoon with over the shoulder hellbores can potentially do so.

The fed can't keep hitting the same shield with every pass, the hellbore will quickly be almost guaranteed to.

I also made it clear to account for the speed that each ship could do, not what they did in the actual game played.

Everything I said has a romulan counter, but it is a starting point to look at matching your strengths to the potential weakness of the other ship and work out how you might exploit that, afte that you just have to deal with the details as they happen.


This thread was not about specific matchups like the above thread, it was a general thread about plasma. There are bad matchups for plasma races. As noted somewhere above, the race I most don't want to face with rom/gorn are Kzinti. There are equally races I don't want to meet when I'm playing kzinti.

[mojo jojo]

As I said in my earlier post... 1 Firehawk (179) and 2 SparrowHawk (2x135) is a valid tourney fleet of 449 points. So I am comparing valid 3 ship combo to counterpart valid 3 ship combos (a Klingon choice could be 1 DWL & 2 D7)


With the 2 fleets I just noted, at range 9-15...
RA kling vs. FA Rom
Rom: 14 P1 = average 14 damage. (14 energy)
Kling: 14 P2s, 4P1s = average 13.33 (14*.67 + 4) (18 energy)
Note: The Klingon number halves off centerline while the Rom does not change.

Using the weapons out the rear oblique you used... using an FA/R or FA/L for the Rom to make the comparison more 'valid'...
RA/L kling vs FA/L Rom
Rom: 17 P1 = average 17 damage. (17 energy)
Kling: 10 P2s, 12 P1s = 16.33 damage. (22 energy)
Note: This is a rarer situation as both ships require being down the hexline.

The Klingons will have 6 drones every turn after you. That'll remove a bunch of PH1/3 from the Romulan equation. Especially if they combine an impulse 8 launch with an impulse 1 launch and have 12 in flight bearing down on a single ship. Since the Rom is chasing, the drones will be going downhill and impact fairly quickly. I'd give the advantage to the Klingons in a chase situation as long as the drones last.

I would agree that a Kzinti fleet poses more of a threat, but given that there's an assumption that the Kzinti fleet is moving 24/24+1, I'd expect the Rom/Gorn to be doing the same. Drones are fairly easy to just negate (rather than shooting them down) by manuever. Especially when you've got the speed advantage. Also, Rom late wars are a little more phasor heavy than people seem to be giving them credit for. 12 p3's in the fleet I would use.

12 PH3 is laughable in the face of 20-24 drones in flight, especially if targetted on a single ship. And drones are not easy to outmanuever when you also have 3 Kzin ships also moving at your speed. Either you're going to be burning off your PH1 on drones, or you're going to be running away. Either situation leaves the Kzinti at a big advantage.

[Savedfromwhat]

As far as late war ships are you comparing the battlecruiser (FIREHAWK)
to CA's and D7's? and I think the Sparrowhawk is the Romulan NCA as per SVC but I can't find the thread where he says the Firehawk is the BC. So in a fleet battle the Best you can get is (2 FH's and a Skyhawk) 16 P1's out your FA while the Feds can Fire (with two nca's and a cs) 12 P1's with 6 more within a couple of sideslips to the RS or LS arcs). and as

Whether it is NCA or CA isn't relevant, FC isn't like SFB where you choose based on some historical timeline. Certainly for the tourney, FC is just pick your fleet based on points, there is no real concept of ship dates and timelines etc. Your're right the Fed could choose those ships, but Phul has also said what roms he choose, and it wasn't the ones you note. The feds may have the phasers, but can they outrun plasma at 24+, hold/arm any photons and actually use all those phasers? I've also played turn mode D ships running at 24+ from plasma, it's painful on a tourney map. You quickly hit map edge then map corner, unless you use your HET (if you haven't already) then there may as well be neon lights highlighting your route for several impulses, that end in a sign saying 'intercept me here'.

Storyelf as the Fleet I chose acctually has two more Front Firing Phasers then Phuls I don't see what point you are trying to make here.

The point I'm making was that you were responding to Phul talking about a Rom fleet chasing a fleet running from plasma, and what weapons they would have to fire backwards with compared to what phasers he could bring to bear. The fact that you have more phasers out the front was not really meangingful in that context. Neither does having extra phasers help if you lack power for them. Depending on how many impulses you need to do 24+ the fed NCAs (assuming they are paying 4 to hold standard photons) may be down to just 2 spare power (barring batteries).

The Point I was just making was that the ROMULAN FLEET I chose had more forward firing phaser 1's then Phuls. So yes it was meaningful becuase the ROMULAN FLEET I was using in my example was acctally better then Phuls as far as phasers go (for the record it was 2x Firehawk 1x Skyhawk and it is 10 points over tournament legal). And also in my Scenario Feds would be firing Photons at Range 8 then running. And yes you can get to Range 8 without eating Plasma.

Also how many times have you used plasma on a fixed map, or had it used against you?

[storeylf]

Klingons .... I still think they have a great chance.

I think they have a reasonable chance, not a great chance. Thats the point, I think plasma are fine as they are, I think disrupters are fine as they are. I don't think either will just waltz to victory.

[storeylf]

And also in my Scenario Feds would be firing Photons at Range 8 then running. And yes you can get to Range 8 without eating Plasma.

If you want to discuss getting to fire photons at range 8 then why not just make a post saying such. This conversation has been following your quoting phuls discussion of romulans chasing a running fleet, and you keep quoting follow ups to that. How are we meant to realise you have assumed a range 8 photon strike etc which from phuls intial post about these tactics won't happen unless you eat plasma first.

Also how many times have you used plasma on a fixed map, or had it used against you?

Well all of our games over the last 6 months or so have been on the fixed tourney sized map. As I have already made clear a few times, I aint a plasma race lover and have only played them 3 times. My regular opponent likes roms, He's played them at least 3 times as well. So 6 maybe 7 plasma games as I remember on a fixed tourney map over the last 6ish months.

[Savedfromwhat]

Next Time I will give you a detailed impulse by impulse discussion of my plan... Seriously I think we can lock this thread if this is how we are reduced to debating the topic.

[storeylf]

Serioulsy Saved, there is nothing wrong here, I am not trying to bait you or rile you or anything like that. It simply is a case of confusion reigning as I could not see how posts about Fed FA phasers and FA photons tied into what you were quoting - discussion of a chase situation, following on from phuls discussion of when to fire plasma and what to do in the next couple of impulses (preventing the range 8 strike before plasma impact).

[pinecone]

Guys, please chill out. Let's, debate about this in a constructive way, not a flame war.

[mojo jojo]

Klingons .... I still think they have a great chance.

I think they have a reasonable chance, not a great chance. Thats the point, I think plasma are fine as they are, I think disrupters are fine as they are. I don't think either will just waltz to victory.

The Hawk or Kestral fleet may have done better, but my playing against the 2 KE, BH, and Snipe fleet seems to show IMO that it wasn't competitive vs the Klingon fleet. Having 2 big weapons and a lot of little weapons doesn't seem to be as effective as a more balanced set of weapons would've been.

[Savedfromwhat]

Storyelf I have never tried to discus federation FA arcs If I implied it it was unintentional my point was that on turn 2 the fed can close to range 8 Fire OL photons and then run away at that point in a tournament game the averagedamage is 96 points, more then enough to Cripple a ship. And then run while firing Phasers (18 out my RA some LS some RS some RA and some 360).

I would like to continue a healthy discussion of the issue which is that Plasma is or is not underpowered, but I don't appreciate my point being ignored because you don't think it fits with the topic. I can understand how you perceived it as changing the subject but I was just basing the tactic off of prior discussion in this thread. The Federation is not the only race that can use this manuever against plasma.

[storeylf]

Storyelf I have never tried to discus federation FA arcs If I implied it it was unintentional my point was that on turn 2 the fed can close to range 8 Fire OL photons and then run away at that point in a tournament game the averagedamage is 96 points, more then enough to Cripple a ship. And then run while firing Phasers (18 out my RA some LS some RS some RA and some 360).

I would like to continue a healthy discussion of the issue which is that Plasma is or is not underpowered, but I don't appreciate my point being ignored because you don't think it fits with the topic. I can understand how you perceived it as changing the subject but I was just basing the tactic off of prior discussion in this thread. The Federation is not the only race that can use this manuever against plasma.

Seriously I'm not trying to ignore your point, it was just until that post above where you explicitly said it I didn't realise that was your point/scenario as it didn't seem to fit with what you were quoting. The point you want to make is pefectly valid for the thread as a whole. Phul has described the potential counter to it.

Whilst I haven't played a plasma race vs Fed (I played a fed vs rom though), his tactics are essentially similar to ones I've used in a couple of the games I have played, and they work quite well.

[pinecone]

Try Tholians vs Plasma. It's really quite sad if you think about it.