Federation Commander

Yesterday we got together for an all day game, and played what we had always planned to when we were able to get in such a day. A starbase assault with extra defending ships.

We had plumped for 1000pts, and diced for the starbase a couple of nights before. That person would choose his race and then the other side (who would be commanded by 2 players) would have to pick an historical enemy. It was also decided that the Base would get its sensors (inc options from the old communique but missing from hydran attack) and the attacker could bring an escort (we are going through a phase of testing out various BoM things). I 'won' the dice roll and so got to be the base player. I was torn between my favourite hydrans and my old old favourites (pre SFB hydran) Kzinti. Ph4s, hellbores, stingers and gatlings just oozes respect. But I went Kzinti. The other side choose lyran. Capt "I'm just bringing my rear phasers into arc" Jack would command some orion mercenaries on the lyran side.

In the intervening days I choose 2 Medium cruisers and a Command cruiser to support the base. Total main fire power was 12 ph4s, 16 disrupters, 12 ph1s and 24 drones a turn with 36 drone control limit.

At that point I wasn't aware of ships the attacker would have. But some quick calculations showed that the sensor stuff would keep the base safe from any attempt at long range sniping by the attacker, and would help the support ships in such a situation pretty well. I was not going to charge out with the support ships, they would stay slow and reasonably close to the base either to add firepower in a mid/long range exchange or accelerate and 'tackle' if the attackers were clearly committed to an ESG attack run. That was my main concern, Mass ESG bursts would do substantial damage that couldn't be countered via sensors. However, the fact that the Lyrans would have to stagger themselves for an ESG run I expected to give me a fair chance to stop such an attack.


Attacking was a Lyran Heavy dreadnaught, 2 tiger CAs, a FF and and a Jaguar escort cruiser, supported by an orion battlecruiser and heavy cruiser (armed with Disr and ph1s and a gatling, he switched his drones for an ADD and extra ph1). 11 ESGs (220 possible auto damage).

The first turn saw the Lyrans move up to attack the support ships at range 15. They threw everything they had at one of the CMs, which was left pretty unscathed - 1 burnthrough and a dozen or so shield damage. To be fair the attackers rolls were absolutely terrible and way under average, between that and the sensor, and the spare power to battery 2 damage from most volleys the CM was laughing. In return one of the Tigers was hit hard by the base and the support ships. 24 drones were launched at the second Tiger.

Turn 2 went pretty much the same as turn 1, probably hoping that it was more the terrible rolling that had left the turn 1 exchange so one sided, the attackers stuck with their mid range plan, but the lyrans decide they needed to hit the base and ignore the ships. But again the attackers rolls were hopeless, and in the face of a +2 shift the base took no damage that was not casually batteried away The damaged Tiger in return was now smoking badly. By this point though the attackers fire power had been reduced by the effort needed to stop 24 drones, which meant the exchange was even more one sided. The attackers had also started to argue about the plan, Capt Jack, in typical form, was not cooperating and was more interested in taking out the kzinti ships. 24 more drones were launched against the untouched Tiger again.

At this point there was a discussion, it was clear that the attackers tactics had failed. It was probably to late to change to the close in fast attack run. Not wanting the day to end early we gave the attacker a couple of small suicide freighters (or 1 large, they went 2 small) - they 'arrived late', to see if that might help. The attackers agreed to pull back and charge in with them.

Turn 3 saw the attakcer U turn to pull in with the approaching Freigters. The 24 drones were again dealt with relativley easily. The base pounded a ship at long range (the undamaged Tiger I think), whilst the support ships fired on one of the Freighters at extreme range. That volley was decisive, the few hits it did left it with just enough power for speed 8. Which meant it was no longer a threat the next turn. 12 drones were launched at the other freighter and 12 at the escort. At this point the escort was starting to annoy me and I wanted it have to decide bewteen defending itself or a helpless freighter.

Turn 4 saw the freighter start at range 24 to the base, and therefore it could just reach the base at the end of the turn, with the second freighter creeping up repairing a bit more power. The attacker were now committed to a charge. This was going to be interesting. The knackered Tiger still had both ESGs, so there was still 11 ESGs coming at the base, along with a 250 damage freighter. The support ships had positioned well at the end of last turn though in anticipation of this, and were able to go speed 8+ and still get a good intercept. I was at this point planning on intercepting, hammering the dreadnaught (4 ESGs) and tractoring the freighter - even just stopping it moving 1 hex forward woud be all I would need. The Orions in typical fashion were less thrilled about charging in, and although they moved up they were not at a speed that would put themselves in a decsive position at the point of decision.

The lyrans moved with the freighter, forming a wall in front and around the freighter, with the escort just behind it. On impulse 3 several drones aimed at the freighter were shot down by the wall of ships, whilst the Kzinti ships blasted the DNH - the damage was largely batteried away (heavily draining power as desired) but we still took down the shield and did internals (1 ESG down). The kzinti ships were now able to launch another 11 drones - which went for the DNH. Impulse 4 was where it all happened, drones impacted the freighter, 12 drones impacted the escort and 11 drones impacted the DNH. There was a discusion on defensiive fire and the vital ordering when Aegis is involved. In the end with no clear rule in the rule book I left the Lyrans to do what was best for them. The freighter was saved from the drones but the escort was unable to then protect itself fully, and it was crippled, the DNH also took some shield damage from drones but had no power/phaser left for the rest of the turn. The Kzinti ships fired all bearing Ph3s on the freighter at a range of 3 aiming at power (the front shield had been dropped earlier by the base using up weapons rotating out of arc). The freighters power was almost entirely stripped, which meant the next non aimed volley was going to clobber frame. The Kzinti BC was able to then immediatley HET round and brought the last 4 ph3s into arc at a range of 0 - wiping the freighter.

At this point it was game over. The Kzinti ships were still intact but having fired everything. The base, however, was still sat with all weapons in arc ready to fire and humming with power. We had no drones left in our racks, but ther Lyrans were gutted, The escort and a Tiger were wrecks, the DNH was not going to survive a run at the SB (and only had a couple of ESGs left this turn), the base would have plenty left over to blast the remaining Tiger as well. The FF was not exactly threatening. The Orions were to far away to bother with.


As a side note there were lots of suicide shuttles being launched by the attackers, but they were all just a minor inconvenience in the end.

Thoughts:

Capt "I'm just bringing my rear phasers into arc" Jack didn't disappoint. From my perspective anyway.

The Escort was worth its weight in gold, or points in gold. The lyran one comes with 13 phasers, which can be manouvered for range 0 defensive shots in support of other vessels. By turn 3 I was getting really frustrated by that vessel.

With the full sensor options the base really does feel very tough to take on, like it should do. The missing option in hydran attack is the self jamming option, the older set with the +2 shift (and seekers miss on a 5 or 6) for the sensor carrying unit makes it a lot tougher. The +1 shift for friendly ships in the area is also very useful. I think the SB needs the sensors if it is to retain that 'how the heck do we take that on' feel. Yes it is fairly tough anyway, but the sensor options are what really felt like they turned it from 'just another large static target with phaser 4s', to a serious endeavor to attack.

My main opponent agreed that afterwards they should just have dived in at the start, their rolling in the first 2 turns really was appalling, but even so a long range duel with the sensor shifts wasn't likely to work and I wasn't going to be daft enough to send my ships out on their own. I'm not quite sure how a charge would have turned out, but it would probably have been a rather boring and quick game, game over one way or the other after the 1 charge turn. The more I think about it the more I think I would have stopped that attack as well, though if there has been suicide freighters as well right at the start that would have made things a little more awkward.

Thats a bit of a conumdrum. The sensors seem to mean there is really only 1 viable tactic against a starbase - charge, with maybe an odd exception in certain matchups. You can't fight a base through Jamming shifts (+1 or 2) at long range, but if you give more ships to counter that then the charge is even more compelling. A simple charge and see who is going to win at the end of that 1 turn doesn't excite me much.

Great AAR - thanks!

Giving the starbase those lovely sensors would make me want to bring a mauler and a Lyran War Destroyer Scout (neither of which is in FC yet AFAIK). The combination of DWS, Mauler, Suicide Freighter, and Escort would help the Lyrans alot - the wouldn't have to depend on massed disruptors and ESG fly-by's.

I wonder if adding the sensor channels to the SB should change its PV.

Speaking of special sensors, I wonder how the Seltorian Battlewagon would be in starbase assaults if it got the special sensors the SFB version made available for use in BoM...

jmt wrote:Great AAR - thanks!

Giving the starbase those lovely sensors would make me want to bring a mauler and a Lyran War Destroyer Scout (neither of which is in FC yet AFAIK). The combination of DWS, Mauler, Suicide Freighter, and Escort would help the Lyrans alot - the wouldn't have to depend on massed disruptors and ESG fly-by's.

I wonder if adding the sensor channels to the SB should change its PV.

Actually, we were looking at the mauler rules after the game talking about just that. I wouldn't have been bothered if he had tried a mauler. He said I had not agreed to a mauler, though I don't remember saying that. Given we were arranging the SB assault after our new year eve game I think he had drunk too much and was making things up.

I don't remember much of SFB, but I thought the cost was based on it havig sensors. The sensor track is even still on the SB card.

Against a SB, you need Tholians, Big Plasma, or heavy crunch power. A disrupter fleet is behind the power curve from the start.

Clever idea picking Kzinti. None of their historical enemies is well suited for tacking a SB.

This wasn't a battle to see who has the best SB or what is the best possible force for a SB assault. If I'd chosen my favourite hydrans it would still have been the same attackers.

Thats the best bit about historical matches isn't it though. They tend to be so much more interesting than just picking the best uber ships without regard to whether they would have fought each other.

I hardly agree with a lack of crunch either. Maybe you just don't know your Lyrans very well. They are often crunchier than Feds (who are generally seen as crunchy) when it comes to pure crunch, and unlike a Fed the Lyran can deliver that crunch every turn.

For example, in terms of max single direct-fire crunch a Lyran NCA out damages a Fed NCA (80 vs 64 + 8 ph1s each). Plus the Lyran NCA massively outdamages the Fed NCA in terms of max damage per turn, there is just no contest - its big weapons out put a possible 80/turn compared to a paltry average 32/turn for the fed.

The photon has a better range than ESG, but in the face of a +2 shift that is less useful, even at range 0-1 the photons will miss 1/3rd of the time unlike the Lyran ESGs, which are totally unaffected.

I'd say that Lyrans are as suited to a SB assault as much, if not more than most others. They have the crunch and the turn on turn damage, making even wrecks hanging around the following turn a serious threat.

Even plasma isn't so hot in the face of the sensor rules I noted we were using either. With options that cause ~1/3 of seeking weapons to miss outright, and others to reduce warhead strength by an immediate 25% they are not quite the uber SB killer they may have been without such sensors. The 2 condor and a WE you once proposed as a Romulan force would be somewhat lucky to even take out a shield with a range 8 launch, with racial weapons still posing a threat to the enemy ships themselves. Then the base has 2 turns to keep hitting the enemy ships (and probably repairing shields) before the next launch.

The sensor rules are a little haphazard at the moment, but using them as we used them (hydran attack with the self protect option put back in) does significantly alter the dynamics of any starbase assault.

Love the write up and can’t disagree with it in any way. The up point of the game for me was the aegis escort and the way the BOM rules worked. You need to work the ship but if you do they give really good result and frustrate the opponent’s planes.
Yes I would have taken a Mauler but as Lee has pointed out when we set the game up I had had a drop of Romulan Ale , so thought I couldn’t. All three are now printed off and ready for use.
Mojo soz but do not agree about the disruptor races and star base assaults, particularly when it comes to Lyran and LDR. With a charge and a booby action it can be done, also no Captain Jack and a dice collapse. Yes I’m bitter Lol.

The problem of course with Lyrans is that they have to get to PB range to outdamage a Fed. And of course a multiple ship fleet means that they have to stagger out their ESGs which is very problematic vs a SB.

As far as a Rom fleet is concerned, the SB should still be dogmeat. They can cloak and get pretty much as close as they want before launching. The base can either choose to shoot back that impulse, or reduce the plasma. And then the Roms cloak again. Either way, it's a losing proposition for the base.

I like the idea of the defensive ECM/Sensors for the base. The big weakness I have always found with bases in FC is that their power can be stripped away very quickly. Although the SB has a LOT of power, it still feels the power damage because it needs a lot of power for all those P-4's. Sounds as if the BoM rules have made it as tough as it should be again, despite the 'missing' SB damage rules from SFB. This is FC, after all, so it's fair enough.

Thanks Lee for a great AAR. Clear and easy to read

mojo jojo wrote:The problem of course with Lyrans is that they have to get to PB range to outdamage a Fed. And of course a multiple ship fleet means that they have to stagger out their ESGs which is very problematic vs a SB.

As far as a Rom fleet is concerned, the SB should still be dogmeat. They can cloak and get pretty much as close as they want before launching. The base can either choose to shoot back that impulse, or reduce the plasma. And then the Roms cloak again. Either way, it's a losing proposition for the base.

Mojo you are making wild statements about how easy X, Y Z is, and how naff disrupter races are.

Would you care to support those statements about how Feds make winning use of their range advantage (compared to the lyrans) in the face of the sensor rules that I stated we were using. Or how the Roms deliver guaranteed SB killing strikes in the face of said sensors, whilst surviving reloading and watching SB shields be repaired in between etc.

Certainly the dice could go wonderfully your way, but assume averages on the basis that a lucky game isn't indicative of how it is likely to go.

In terms of what the SB has to shoot you with or defend itself, assume the SB I was using in our game (Kzinti), seeing as though you are making these assertions in this AAR.

In fact a Kzinti starbase would be especially good against cloaking ships, since all you need to do it to keep a truckload of unlaunched drones and hit them with massive drone waves as they begin to cloak.....

storeylf wrote:

Mojo you are making wild statements about how easy X, Y Z is, and how naff disrupter races are.

Would you care to support those statements about how Feds make winning use of their range advantage (compared to the lyrans) in the face of the sensor rules that I stated we were using. Or how the Roms deliver guaranteed SB killing strikes in the face of said sensors, whilst surviving reloading and watching SB shields be repaired in between etc.

Certainly the dice could go wonderfully your way, but assume averages on the basis that a lucky game isn't indicative of how it is likely to go.

In terms of what the SB has to shoot you with or defend itself, assume the SB I was using in our game (Kzinti), seeing as though you are making these assertions in this AAR.

Tell me how 5-6 Lyran ships can outdamage 5-6 Fed ships in a single impulse. They have to stagger their strikes to outdamage the Feds. I'm not claiming that the Feds will win vs SB with special sensors, but I'm not seeing how the Lyrans will do any better since 6 ESGs means 6 impulses of attack if you don't want to damage your own ships or neutralize your own ESGs unless you want to attack different shields.

You made the claim that the Lyrans have more crunch than the Feds. Please show me how they can apply all that crunch vs a SB vs the same shield.

As far as Roms go, 1000 pts will give me something like 13 Snipes who can cloak and get close. That's 13 Gs and 26 Fs or 780 pts of damage launched at range 4 or 676 damage at range 8. And then the survivors can HET and go 16+1 to run away from drones.

You made the claim that the Kzinti SB and fleet can stop the Roms. Prove it.

Guys, we are moving past the Starbase AAR with all of these hypotheticals. Let's keep the thread under control, please. If you want to have a pointless hypothetical argument on how one force is "always better" than another, please move it to a different thread.

EDIT:

Prove it.

He can't. If he and his opponent were to run a Romulan vs. Kzinti fight where the Kzinti won, you would claim the opponent made a mistake or took the wrong force or whatever. The only way to "prove it" would be for you to fight him, and we have apparently already established that isn't possible.

mjwest wrote:EDIT:

Prove it.

He can't. If he and his opponent were to run a Romulan vs. Kzinti fight where the Kzinti won, you would claim the opponent made a mistake or took the wrong force or whatever. The only way to "prove it" would be for you to fight him, and we have apparently already established that isn't possible.

We can do this one by email if necessary. Frankly, it's just an exercise in dice rolling. 1000 pts of Roms would simply take as many plasma as possible on that many BPV and cloak to get a range 4 or 8 shot. Even a SB with special sensors can't possibly stop 676 or 780 pts of incoming plasma. Even a more traditional 1000 pt fleet can probably get 600+ plasma launched. Unlike direct fire, there is no limit on the amount of seeking weapons that can be launched from 1 hex in 1 impulse.

Lee cast doubt that a Rom assault force can easily deal with a Kzinti SB with special sensors. I just want him to explain himself since he asserted that I was the one making "wild statements" and "assertions".

I can't speak for anyone else, but the idea of the "seeker-stack" existing in FC feels like an oversight that really ought to be addressed, rather than be left as a trick that seeking weapon empires ought to have over direct-fire ones.