Archive through April 21, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
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Orbital Defense Platforms:
Archive through April 21, 2005
Raw Data:
"Jeff Wile:
The report will note that there are at least five Klingon ships, cruiser sized, involved in this operation. Of course, no more than three can be bombardment ships. None of the ships are moving towards the planet, but obviously one of them has a sensor focused on the planet (and another is lending that one six points of ECCM). Obviously this is not done to "guide the drones", but to gather intel on the effects of the strike."
Analysis:
5 Klingon ships, cruiser sized.
No more than 3 may be bombardment ships.
2 of the ships have special sensors.
Depending on the exact types used, we could be looking at (a guess) 5xD5 hulls or 5xD7 hulls or something in between. Call it a range of 510 BPV (plus Commanders options points) to 685 BPV... plus the value of the IIIXX drones used in the strike.
Given the size of the 429 (reinforced) PDU... (and using "game knowledge") it is possible that those 5 ships ARE all that the Klingons have deployed on the mission...
especially since they are taking the time and effort to guage the response and defense readiness of the 429th.
(note such a force level actually equals or exceeds the total BPV of the 429th PDU and attachements.)
SPP: I think you might have forgotten that this arose directly from a debate between you and I very early in this topic. It started with you wanting to provide an example of why something I was proposing won't work. This original thread seemed to show that there was a general lack of understanding of how planetary defenses worked.
So you challenged me to design a planetary defense to see what I'd come up with and it grew from there.
Then it got stalled by Real Life (tm).
Since we know the OPFOR is using ECCM shouldn't our SGWS's be producing ECM at this time to help disrupt the intelligence gathering? I realize this cannot be kept up for extended periods of time but maybe they could alternate in the production of ECM over time to spell the crews.
Mike Curtis:
We do not yet know from what range the Drones have been launched from (my guess of 1,600 tactical hexes, is after still just a guess).
We do not know if the DB ships are standing still and launching from x range, or if (as was suggested above) that they are moving at a tactical speed of up to 31 hexes per turn to "strengthen" the drone wave.
(it is entirely possible that Klingon intel or Orion Pirates sold the intel to the Klingons) that the 429 does not possess any TB's or mines... they could conceivably reinforce the wave with an extradinaryly large number od drones and inflict a "time on target" attack on the 429th where all of the drones appear in 1 32 impulse game turn...and we would be "swamped" with far more drones than we could ever hope to kill given the forces present.
It would be a "gutsy move" on the part of the Klingon Commander... given that Intel could be wrong... and even just 1 or 2 TBombs timed just right could destroy enough drones for the defenses to hold...
but that is neither here or there.
As to your point aboutthe enemy intelligence gathering capacity... yes, but it would make best sense to initiate once the drones arrive... we gain nothing until that point except waste the energy and stress the systems.
We could be in for an intenses 32 impulse turn...depending on how the enemy has planned the attack.
Quote:GAS Platoon: Lieutenant John Trauger.
I sort of stumbled across this yesterday and noted I had been drafted.
What does a "GAS Platoon" consist of?
If I'm at a party, my first order of business is to get on the communicator and send a recall order to my men followed by a squad of troops to retrieve those who either didn't hear the recall or pretended to not hear. I would undoubtably get someone to start brewing a pot of coffee to sober up those that need it and otherwise get the troops combat-ready.
If I have GAS shuttles under my command, get the shuttles and pilots prepped for takeoff on the theory that every P-3 in the sky is a help.
While making these arrangements, I'd seach the thicket of dress uniforms for my superior, Capt. Chobot to report my initial actions and request further orders.
Mike Curtis:
Several things.
The Klingons can use ECCM because they are ships, and there is no limit on the range ECCM can help.
There IS a limit on the range that O-EW can be applied, and there IS no way to provide ECM for AN ENTIRE PLANET.
So there is no gain by the ground bases generating ECM.
The Klingons are not watching the planet, or trying to locate the ground bases. They are observing the action. Looking to see if ships or other things appear to disrupt the attack.
You can pretty much assume that the unit that is scanning the planet has a second special sensor, and that one is pretty much scanning all surrounding space looking for any interception forces from the Federation, and using that same six points of ECCM being lent by the other ship with scout sensors and its own six points of ECCM while performing the task.
Loren Knight:
It grew beyond that when people started acting on their assignments, as I noted when the topic died because I got swamped with detail requests that, in order to answer, required me to invent the entire background of all Klingon operations in the sector for at least the previous six months in order to demonstrate that all the questions being asked would result in (in essence) "maybe yes, maybe no." I finally realized (fairly recently) that all I could really do was tell you guys that while the questions were good, and I knew what you were all trying to do, the Klingons are professionals with a lot of experience, and basically (much like the Allies in laying the ground work for D-Day) know to leave multiple indications of interest in many areas so that no one area can be chosen as the site of actual interest. While twice as many bombs were dropped in the Pas de Calais area than were dropped in Normandy, they also dropped bombs in the Bay of Biscay area to make that seem like a possibility too.
John Trauger:
You have the GAS platoon. Basically you have about six people who are "yours" and are responsible for making sure that the Shuttles are ready whenever the Company Commander wants them. Operationally, you will probably be in essence a 'spare LT'. As the GAS shuttles might be tasked out to support different areas. But your role can be as an active platoon leader controlling the GAS platoon as a fire support asset for the Company. You could also (the spare LT thing) find yourself given a squad or two from different platoons and sent on a mission while your third GAS is attached to one of the platoons that gave up a squad (little combined arms operations and lift operations, etc.).
The company doubtless owns all the maintenance personnel (armorers to work on the weapons, maintenance techs who work on the shuttles and GCVs, etc.), so you do not "own" a squad of troops to send looking for anyone.
If you are at the party (possible), it is probable that none of your boys/girls are (they would be EMs, i.e., enlisted men/women). And it is possible that even though the battalions starts at a low readiness (weapon status) that at least one of your "flight crews" is on standby, i.e., at worst a short-string recall. The other two are either on break, or literally asleep (the planet runs 24 hours, and there is no way to keep your crews going 24 hours except when things have gone really bad, i.e., they are in a "Scenario").
So once you are notified, if the General Recall has not already been sent, it would be appropriate for you to TRY to get through (communications channels are going to be quickly filling up with other people trying to do the same thing) to the Ground Military Garrison to have the Company issue a recall. That would probably be done by a Sergeant who is the "Charge of Quarters".
But you only have nine people total including yourself (it is probable that the two man crew of the Admin shuttle at the GMG also belong to your platoon since it makes sense to have such a small force of shuttles being supervised by one officer).
Steve Petrick:
Loren Posted on April 19, 5:19PM:
"I'll get to this tonight. My files are burried and I never did get that SSD set from Petrick (although I'm pretty sure I can do without it).
Upon being informed I will confirm Red Alert as this should have been already ordered by the duty officer on watch. Pilots will be heading to their fighters and fighters will begin being loaded. The Fighter Cap will take possition between the raid drones and the planet within 10Kkm."
I will have to review our drone stores but I think I have quite a few ADD's and Type-VI's on hand.
Sensor stations will come to full."
edit
Does this constitute "red Alert" and is this sufficient to justify moving personnel from the party to their duty stations?
In particular, If I "in my persona" come across Lt Trauger looking for his superior officer at the party, I would likely do 3 things, one check to see if the officer in question had already been transported to his duty post (and if yes, would order said Lt Trauger to report to his duty post and check in from there...two would be to note that Lt Trauger had seen me, and I would have ordered him (assuming as 3rd in command, that I am authorized to carry out Lt Col. Knights red alert order) and three... wish lt. Trauger good luck in the combat action that is immiently upon us... as I suggest that he might be better employed looking after his unit.
Am I wrong to carry out Col Knights order? And what other higher priority duty should I be pursuing, if not getting the unit ready for combat?
Jeff Wile:
While I am intimately familiar with the details of what is going on on "the other side" with the drones, there is a goal to try to make this a "bar topic" with you guys interacting and weaving plot lines, developing sub characters in your units and staffs, etc. With me sometimes dropping in to create "actionable circumstances" (like a G1 dropping off things, or a bombardment raid, or an actual assault, or . . .).
So, sure, you can see Lt Trauger, or anyone else you want to define as at the party. You can even look for Colonel Knight (only person you definitely cannot find at the party is Lt Getgen, someone had to be SDO).
But there is not going to be much chance that I am going to be able to drop in an materially direct people's actions. And, frankly, even I may learn a thing or two about the rules from things (in point of fact, I already have just since this started).
Major Raymond Ford reporting in.
I'm looking forward to getting back into this. My real world schedule allows me to check this board from home a couple of times a day. However, I do not have net access at work (M-F 8-5).
Major Ford:
It would appear if Marc Baluda does not show up, that you will have to be it for the local defense forces.
We could say that some individuals became extrememly ill and are not currently available.
Jeff: Rather that make actual moves I would like for us to discuss which moves everyone would like to make. SPP gave us a week but I'll be able to write my intro before that times up.
PaulS, the GBDP phasers have 180 coverage and are serparated by 120, the drone wave will face at least 2 bases...
SPP, what is the local time when the alert was sounded (I believe that Lt Frazier's post is Encino which would put it 8 hours behind Annapolis)?
If at the party, awaiting transport to station...
If onsite, issue recall orders and energize phaser capacitors, obtain sensor data for possible targets...
If offsite, upon arriving onsite, ensure base personnel onsite, and capacitors are warmed up...
Quick Status report:
I make the current tally as 19 officers on the table of organization (ranks and duty stations assigned) that have not yet reported available for duty.
I have counted 7 officers responding to the alert. (including Col. Knight, myself,Stewart Frazier, Raymond Ford, John Trauger, Scott Tenhoff, and Paul S.)
One officer absent but otherwise accounted for (Robert Cole)
and 4 personnel who have participated in the thread, but who do not have a formal assignment (Mike Curtis, the PLO 
, Allan Trevor and Craig Tenhoff... I am sure others will check in now that the thread is active...
edit, changed listed names after correcting errors.
Or checking in but not sure what to write at the current time.
Well Col Knight, if you need someone, I am busy twittering my thumbs down here at Fighter Base Alpha. The fighters are loading as fast as they can be.
Stewart,
Sadly neither the "C" or "E" base can target the A hexrow. Its 120 degrees apart and 90 degrees either side. 120+90+90=300.
Now as the drones get closer to the planet this dead arc narrows so I expect at very close range more than one base may get to shoot but in theory a big stack of drones can hit the planet only having to face one ground battery.
SPP, I'll try and do more in character and less SFB scheming from now on.
SPP noted: "The Klingons can use ECCM because they are ships, and there is no limit on the range ECCM can help."
I would perhaps suggest the Klingon sensor officers consult their EW manuals again and read (D6.313) which defines the effective range of ECCM as 150 hexes for scouts. I am presuming the Klingons are not that close, based on the available starfleet intelligence.
So I'm not entirely sure what good the ECCM is doing them, nor what useful tacint they hope to gain from such a long range - although perhaps with prolonged observation they could detect ship presence, explosions and count units...
CatWhoLeaps (Captain 5th DWS class KHS "CatsEye").
General Defense Company, GMG:
Reciept of general alert acknowledged.
UNORDIR, deploying per OpPlan Drone 1 variant A.
Capt. Grafton
Commanding
off camera
Col: whatever you decide is OBVIOUSLY my Drone 1, variant A plan. I would suggest manning the GDS and asknig the NG to join us...
Memo
To: Col Knight, CO 429th PDU.
From: Major Wile, S3 Btn Ops, 429th PDU.
Re: Security Measures.
Sir, Recommend the following steps be considered:
1. Communications security level II. (no interference with civilian bands, but) Btn Signals office to monitor military and Government bands for covert communications from possible indiginous spy groups or the possible Klingon Insertion forces that may have been deployed "feet dry" one week ago.
2. Activate civil defense units, open the shelters and alert the CD personnel for duty. (no civilian evacuation at this point, but giving the space raid wardens a "heads up" now is a reasonable precaution that will only reduce the confusion and panic that will occur when public notice is released.)
3. Alert local law enforcement that there is a threat to public safety... and advise them to be aware of possible Klingon Insertion teams may become "overt" at this time.
Thank you,
Major Wile, S3 ops
429th PDU.
General Question:
OOC
the 429th has 3 GAS shuttles, and 5 Admin shuttles on TO and in service, correct?
The local reinforcment (Col Baluda's/Major Fords units) have no flight group? (i mean no indiginous shuttles?)
and there are no civilian or federation ships in orbit. (statement, not question).
Per SPP statement earlier, if the fighter group were to scramble, they could intercept the drone strike at 300 hex range, speed 32 (speed of drones, not the fighters) giving the opportunity at least for up to 9 turns of anti drone ops.
if the recon force of 2 fighters using just phaser gatlings manage to kill up to 4 drones each per turn, the drone wave potentially could be reduced by 8 drones for 9 turns or 72 drones out of the estimated 360 IIIXX.
there is a risk to the fighters of enemy interception... but the chance to "attrit" the drone strike must be weighed against the potential of drone impacts on civilian targets and general devastation of the planet.
General Comment:
While the initial report from SPP indicated that the DB ships were not moving as they launched the drone strike implies that only 18 or so drones per turn will be arriving on map each turn, that could be wrong.
By use of a "dogleg" ballistic courses, it would be possible to have the drone wave "double up" (say the first drones launched are directed to point "A" that is out of the direct line of approach to Cassandra IV (Caledonia) while the second group procedes directly to point "B"...and the Drones targeted to point "A" inturn get directed to point "B"... the all the drones as they reach point "B" get directed to point "C" which is a hex within 8 hex range of Cassandra IV (Caledonia).
The result is 72 drones per turn arriving with in 8 hexes of the planet...and assume all have ATG and random targets... which mean any fighters and shuttles with in the 8 hex range of the ATG drones could become the target of a particular drone.
72 drones per turn will exceed the phaser only capacity of the fighter squadron.
And there is no law or rule that I am aware of that SPP might not mix different speed drones in the strike.
say he launched the speed 20 IIIXX drones first from 1,600 hex range...using the targeting suggested earlier so that 72 speed 20 drones arrive on the map each turn...then repeated the formula with speed 32 drones... I havent put a spread sheet together to see what the numbers play out as... but the potential exists that he could using various "drone tricks" increase the number of drones arriving each turn to a high degree.
heaven help us if he uses speed 32, 20, 12, and 8 drones and dog leg courses... we could have the potential of 288 drones showing up on the first turn with 4 different speeds and the follow up "wave" of speed 32 drones composed of 72 fast drones that will benefit from the slower speed drones still on the map from the prior turn that had not yet been destroyed or hit a target.
I wonder how perturbed SPP is at us?!?
Jeff Wile:
Uh . . . better check your data.
The message from me you are referring to read:
=====================================================
By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 20, 2005 - 02:26 pm: Edit
None of the ships are moving towards the planet,
=====================================================
Which is considerably different from
====================================================
By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:09 am: Edit
General Comment:
While the initial report from SPP indicated that the DB ships were not moving as they launched the drone strike
====================================================
You might consider that the data I gave means that the announcement of the strike came AFTER the Klingons completed the launch and the situation was analyzed and the target calculated and the warning sent.
Jeff Wile:
As to targeting. The rules allow three "way points", but way points are assigned to individual drones and not to the bombardment as a whole. The course change for the drones at each way point might be a HET, doubling back on its pervious course. If you sit down with a calculator and a lot of time, or have a friend who is good with computers (I did at Fort Campbell), you can actually compute the moves a DB ship would have to do, plus the courses that the drones would have to follow, to get them to basically arrive someplace in a particular "pattern".
As a simple example. If you wanted 12 drones from your D6D to arrive someplace, but did not want to move your D6D, you could launch the first six moving AWAY from the target, programmed to do a HET at their first way point. Then when they entered the ship's hex away, launch the second six drones (over a turn break, this could be done in about nine impulses with Fast Drones, allowing for the fact that you are going to lose one hex of movement, and thus one impulse, when the first group of six drones HETs. If you wanted 18 drones to hit, then you would need about 42 impulses (the first group of six would move farther away before they did their HET, would then link up with the second group on the impulse they did their HET, and both groups would link up with the third group when they did their HET. Doglegs can be used the same way, with the drones further away turning and linking up with succeeding groups of drones launched later. Only the earliest groups of drones launched first would in fact move the even close to their entire range, the last drones launched might only move half, or even less.
David Crew:
I think I will need to bump that up to SVC as the rules in (D17.0) do not define what happens when a Scout with four ECCM at scans something at 150 hexes range. Rule (D17.26) simply notes the effect of EW. While the Klingon ships are clearly more than 150 hexes distant, they are scanning for things like ships entering and leaving, and explosions, and certainly do not want to be surprised.
So I am going to leave it where it stands.
Scouts are clearly capable of performing stratigic scans which is what they'd be doing if out of tactical range.