Jeff Wile:
Your calculations only hold if the shuttles are within the drone targetting criteria of the type-IIIXX drones. Unless they are intended to take out the fighters (i.e. MW or Starfish), I don't think the Klingons will set the regular drome target aquisition gear for shuttles.

Paul Stovell:
the second type VI drone will have to wait for Turn 9 unless you wish to target the type-VI at a the same drone as the previous drone launched within the same turn.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

One other thing.

A "Sergeant Major" is NEVER referred to as "Major". He is referred to by all officers as "Sergeant Major", although some will allow you to use the familar "Smaj", as in "Well, Smaj, what do you think?"

If you continue to refer to him as "Major", I have no doubt your men will find your body behind the command post on some cold dark night, and the doctor will determine that you died of a heart attack, although all will know that it was because the Sergeant Major fixed you with his "evil eye". (All Sergeant Majors have the ability to fire death beams from their eyes at those who annoy them . . . trust me on this.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Scene, At the BAll at the Governor's estate, waiting in the transporter Queue to be transported to his duty station, Major Wile is scanning thru his text messages, where he reads the following from Col Knight:

quote:"After the strike is over I want a new serch for possible invaders started. Major Wile, get a non-essential GFO working up a plan. If there is a Klinogn team on planet from the G1 they will have been forced into shelter as well. I want the plan to include an imediate search or scan of all good candidates for shelter from general drone bombardment. They will need protection from radiation so that equipement was probably not kept in the cities (not impossible but unlikely IMO)."

Thinking to himself "non-essential?!?"...

dismissing any thought of assigning the Perm Latrine Officer to the task... (while certainly qualifies as "non-essential"), the task obviously must be handled by a dedicated and experienced officer, who will be trusted to complete the task quickly and efficiently.

Mentally reviewing the battalions table of organization yeilded several excellant choices, but Major Wile realized that "going outside of the chain of command" was not only a danger to the unit cohesion and the trust built between the different links in the chain of command, it was also disrespectful to the officer "hopscotched" by going outside of the chain of command.

(OOC comment, I am thinking that as I am assigned to Annapolis, GMG, the next junior officer close to my office will be Michael C Grafton, Captain, and a GFO. just a guess, but I would think he would be the closest officer in the chain of command and an appropriate person to consult with).

Memo
To: Captain Michael C Grafton, GMC, 429th PDU.
From: Major Wile, S3, OPS,429th PDU.
Re: ground side security, Cassandra IV.

Mike, See the attached orders from Col Knight. Would you please nominate 3 canidates for the "non-essential GFO working up a plan" duty? I will pick from the list you generate, but I will rely upon you to decide who is "nonessential" during a Drone Bombardment raid.

If you wish to undertake the task your self, I would be most pleased, and I suspect Col Knight would appreciate it also.

Thank you.
Major Wile.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:46 pm: Edit

William:

We (at this time) don't know what the Klingons targeting orders/criteria are.

if the Klingons expected intercept at 300 hexes, then some of the IIIXX drones with MW and other nifty anti fighter stuff will end the ballistic targeting, look for fighters at that point and go innert (becuase the dumb drones cant be programed with if/then statement like (go to point B, if size clas 5 or small target within range, target it, if not then procede to cassandra IV and ...) the good news is some drones won't make it to the planet in that case...if the klingons didnt plan for a fighter intercept at 300 hexes, then the fighters will be killing drones "on the way by" since the ballistic targeting will not allow the drones to attack fighters.

The second option, that some drones might (or might not) be targeted against fighters or shuttles instead of the planet means that we should have sent the fighters on the distant intercept with the hope of killing as many as we could. the result is all the fighters survive, and as many drones as they could kill in the mean time also never get to Cassandra IV.

With regard to the GAS and Admin shuttles, You may be correct...but It will depend on what SPP goals for the exercise were...to devastate the planet, kill shuttles or both.

If the drones are set for randome targeting, we should plan to take advantage of that...if the drones are not set for random targets... well it was worth a try...and ample justification for having the GAS inplace and using their phaser 3's.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Note - You will be able to note the size of each force at 1,000,000 km (100 hexes) for level S5 (twice level A). That noted you will know the position of each unit within 50,000 km of actual position.

Ken

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 05:09 pm: Edit

Which is good as far as that goes...but the issue is early information...not battle information within 3 turns of entering the point defense range of the 429th PDU.

If the 429th could get accurate (and timely) information on the enemy OPFOR (which at this time seems to be entirely composed of typeIIIXX drones) we would have a significant advantage in early preparations.

If the Recon CAP could get an earlier intercept by goining immediately (and depending on when they launch, the speed they move at, whether they have the phaser pod, or not etc) they might be able to improve on the time issue... for example, if they manage to beat the squadron launch window by "just" 2 turns" they increase the IP (interception point) by 64 hexes (or 364 hexes from the planet) and increase the time Col knight would have to make changes to his orders by 2 more turns...

not much, but depending in circumstances, potentialy decisive.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 05:51 pm: Edit

SPP: Sgt. Major Plana will be unavailable for this excersise.

Jeff Wile: You're next in line, whant the job?

BTW: What I meant by a non-essential GFO was someone who is not needed for the coming space battle. That is, non-essential to the current situation. That also means not you or any of the other top Officers, you are needed for the task at hand. Basically I want the new search mission started by simply locating all the good places to hide out from nuclear explosions. These should be in two catagories, cities (and man made structures) and natural cover (i.e.: mountain caves, of which there are many but less are deep enough to offer real protection)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 05:55 pm: Edit

SPP: Sorry for the error. I found that in an e-mail so that means the 429th layout I posted above is the one prior to the final tweaks we gave it lo those many years ago.

I do want the Cap to intercept at 300 and I suppose I ought to order the full squadron up into space and hold in orbit until the cap reachs the recon point (30 hexes from the wave front). That will buy two extra turns on Paul Stovels breakdown.

Paul: Of course you may beam back to CC with me. Everyone else too (although I figured you already had while I talked to the Governor.)

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 07:02 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:
You are mistaken on your assumption of the targeting ability of Type-IIIXX drones. You do not have to dictate an intercept range on the drones at all. I will type out the relevant sections of rules to support my case.

(FD5.255) Type-IIIXX drones:
The drone is launched on a long ballistic course toward an area where the enemy units are thought to be present. This course may include a maximum of 3 waypoints. After reaching each waypoint, the drone will switch to the next waypoint. During this time, the drone will ignore any targets.
After the final waypoint, it will activate its sensors and proceed on a programmed course until it fuel is exhausted or locates a target (FD5.252). It will then accept that target and attack.

(FD5.252) A type-III drone can be launched on a ballistic course to seek its own target. It will accept the first enemy unit in its FA arc, eligible for lock-on, and within 8 hexes. The owning player can designate the acceptable size class of the target at the time of launch using (FD7.3).
(FD5.256) Players can use a more acurate targeting system in (FD5.252) instead of (FD7.3). The player can specify a tactical intelligence hull type.

As I stated before, the drones in question could have been launched from as far away as 3200 hexes and therefore will have probably met the requirements of their final waypoint far beyond your 300 hex barrier. The drones could even be launched without any waypoints and be actively searching for targets along their course right out of the racks. This means that from up to 3200 hexes away, the drones the Klingons want to attack the planet will be set on a course to within 8 hexes of the planet and set to seek the planet. The drones assigned for anti-fighter or anit-ship work will have that included in their targeting criteria and therefore attack those units if they come within 8 hexes of the drones. If they don't run into any ships or fighters, the drone will accept the planet.

Klingons are not uneducated drone-chuckers and are not going to waste their entire salvo looking for targets of opportunity. With 3200 hexes to play with, the Klingons will have figured out the waypoints and timed the drone launches to give maximum effect in whatever direction and whatever amount they choose. If I can figure this out as a relatively uneducated drone-chucker, just imagine the terrible things an educated one could.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 08:15 pm: Edit

I do not think the Fighters should be sent on recon in bits. Either send Banshee flight to go shoot it up, or leave both flights together and let us set up closeby to prepare the defense. Sending out 2 fighters really wont get us all that much, and if the drone wave is "booby trapped" we will just lose 2 fighters...

Sir.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 08:48 pm: Edit

OOC

Remember that our ground bases are SC5 and are considered to operate as PFs, meaning that our basic range is 50 hexes for Level A Intell (100 for S5 information). The GWSs have 75 (150), not 150 (300) that some are assuming. FYI - fighters and manned shuttles have 35 range and the EWF has 50 though I don't think they get S5 information.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 09:13 pm: Edit

LT. Frazier had almost left the base when the alert came in. Turning back he hoped that this would be a drill and be able to enjoy whatever time remained but the SITREP the sergeant handed him quickly dashed that idea. Doing some quick mental calculations, the lieutenant gave orders to recall all personnel and energize the main phaser.

"It will be a while before we can see the drones with our own sensors, or from the Warning Stations for that matter. Once our Sensor Tech arrives, see if she can improve our range any."

"Contact HQ when the boards show green and give our readiness status, hopefully the glitch that showed on our first run-through won't reappear."

"I'll be in the office getting in touch with the local authorities to begin evacuation to shelters..." Wonder how many drones they shot at us?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Loren:

I am confused by your comment, "your next in line, whant the job?"

Am I to understand that you want me to change from third in the line of command to senior enlisted rank?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:43 pm: Edit

William Soder:

You may be mistaken.

The range that the Drone Groups were launched from has not been stated.

the maximum range is, indeed, 3,200 hexes for fast IIIXX drones.

Unless you were consulted by SPP in the preparation of the mission, you could not, from the data presented "know" with any certainty if the drones were infact launched from 3,200 hexes, 3,201 hexes (which means that the drones fail to reach the target due to being launched at a target too far for their fuel endurance) or 3,199 hexes or some other number.

Second, you do not know what targeting orders SPP gave the drone strike... he may have elected to target only the planet and have all drones ignore any other ships, fighters, shuttles or drones that they may encounter until they reach 1 hex range from the planet...

Third, the whole point of the drone bombardment might (unlikely, I grant you) be to kill as many shuttles and fighters as possible... so as to leave Caledonia intact and undamaged so that the ground force assault units wont have to deal with the F-16M's, admin shuttles and GAS.

What I have been trying to communicate is that there is a number of things that we are ignorant about, with regards to this exercise.

for example, we still dont know what the klingons mission is. just killing all life forms on Cassandra IV is within their ability...but one has to ask why they would do such a thing...it is lousy PR, it removes the possibility of using the inhabitants has a labor force (not to mention potential tax payers) and it would mean one less planet that the Federation would have to spend men, ships and equipment on defense missions.

if it is in preparation for reoccupation of the planet... a planet wide cataclysim of 200 points of devastation damage per hex side would make the place less attractive since it wouldnt be able to grow its own food once the eco system was destroyed...not to mention the civilian infrastructure and economy.

if the Drone bombardment can separate the mobile part of the defenses from the planet (the fighters and various shuttles) the reoccupation would have a somewhat easier time of it.

In one sense, if any time a fighter comes with in one of the drones, it attracts said drone... then Richard wells comments earlier imply that the fighters will be more effective in defeating the drone swarm, not less. (well, the pilot may argue the point, since it is less that likely that said pilot would survive...but if a f-16M comes within the drone stack, and all 60 or so drones in the stack accept the fighter as a target...then that whole drone stack has be eliminated from being used against the planet.

If I could trade 1 F-16M or 1 Admin shuttle for 60+ points of IIIXX drones, it would be worth it.

I dont beleive that SPP would have set up the drone targeting orders that way... but it would mean that the 429th survives the drone strike... and we already have a 12 fighter squadron of F-16M's (and their FSB's!) on order. (heaven only knows when we will receive them... no doubt as soon or sooner than we would get replacements for the battle losses we will be having.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:11 pm: Edit

A quick and dirty calculation, for those willing to consider it:

if the fighter squadron (all 12 F-16's worth) could load drones, and launch and intercept one of the drone strikes at 300 hexes from Cassandra IV... that means at speed 26 (max normal speed of the F-16's) the could hit the IP (interception point) in approximately 11.538 turns.

that means the drones would have traveled approximately 369 hexes to hit the IP at the same time. that means the drones were launched from a range greater than (300+369=669) hexes.

What that means is we have approximately 22.5 game turns (some 720 impulses) until the drones "hit" the atmosphere.

Gentlemen, the clock is ticking.

we had best "get our act together" and figure out how to defeat the drone waves...or this "bar room exercise" will come to a very quick ending.

It is actually a little bit better, as SPP has told us that the Cap could leave immediately, and intercept the drone group from "a lot farther away" than 300 hexes.

Obviously that could be open to interpretation, but if the CAP just got 2 extra turns lead over the full squadron scramble order, then they would intercept the drones no less than 352 hexes IP, and the drone group would have traveled (13.538 turns at 32 hexes per turn, or 433 hexes...so that would make the launch point in excess of (433+352=785) hexes, with a time duration of (785/32=24.53 turns.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:17 pm: Edit

Jeff: Giving non-planetary targets to a portion of the drones can protect the remaining drones. For example, the distant fighter intercept doctrine I have promoted relies on repeated phaser fire at close range. A drone that disables a fighter early will keep that fighter from having a chance to kill 10 more drones. Same result from DefSat, ship or base destruction. Additionally, destroyed defenses require Starfleet to divert some reinforcing unit until the defenses can be rebuilt. Finally, if the optional target does not exist, the planet still takes damage.

Some of this will depend on SPP's bombardment strategy. The players I used to play against tended to assign about 1/3 of drones to hit other targets. This did lead to a memorable situation where about 30 drones all changed course to destroy an empty scatterpack. (Lucky placement where several closely packed drones waves converged.) Ideally placed, the drones should not all congregate on one target and disrupt optimum drone killing tactics.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:21 pm: Edit

OOC I do not see where the ground bases are condidered to operate as PF's. A3.22 implies that bases are ships. D17.3 shows Scout has a range of 150. MRB notes show the GWS to be a scout. From all of this I believe the S5 range should be 300 hexes.

FYI - fighters and manned shuttles have 35 range and the EWF has 50 though I don't think they get S5 information. -- S5 is double the Level A range per D17.4 S1.

Ken

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:29 pm: Edit

One note about the Shatter packs. I would like to launch them in a way so that they blossom near enought to the planet to be able to transport a pilot to them and fly them back to the planet.

Jeff Wile: Gary Plana is unable to join the discussion. He is way too busy with other issues including GPD developement and RL issues. He'd like to but just can't.

So his slot is open. Maybe SPP should assign the possition? Who ever takes the slot won't be promoted but will have always been there.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Loren, I say let SPP promote a senior Non Com to the slot, preferably some one "steady" and "reliable"...and one who had prior military experience...say that the S.Major fell down a flight of stairs and will be in the infirmary for the rest of the action, and the next senior enlistman moved up to handle the Battalion.

(I would not suggest the LPO for that task, however. Its no place for a commedian )

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Loren, check what Chris Fant has posted...normally it is a valid point about concentrating our strength...but if we could get the recon flight out to the farthest IP(352 hexes), you would have 13+ turns to decide what is the best response to the Drone Groups... if you hold the Recon group to within 100 hexes of base, the Special sensor pod will only add 50 hexes to that...and that works out to be 150 hexes from base (100+50=150 hexes).

Just over 4 turns for the speed 32 IIIXX drones to hit the planet... or 13+ turns to devise a winning tactic...with the time left to put the forces into place.

Chris is correct that it could result in the loss of 2 F-16M's but the information revealed could change the whole battle.

(actually with the special sensors adding the 50 hexes range, the sensors could pick out the data we need at (352+50=402hexes) range..adding almost 2 more turns travel time for the drone group to hit theplanet...with the added range, the Recon flight would be safe from any possible targeting by the drones (assuming the stay 8 hexes away at all times)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:03 am: Edit

Ken Kazinski;

Note D17.123 (Page 96 of the MRB):

"Small and medium ground bases [size 5 units, see (P2.76) and (R1.28)] count as PFs for this purpose. Size class 4 and larger bases on a planetary surface are treated as ships."

By William Curtis Soder (Ghyuka) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:07 am: Edit

Jeff Wile:
Do you actually read posts from others or assume you did?

I never stated the launching point. I only pointed out that given the maximum range of such a point, that the drones could be actively seeking a target that matches their criteria. You have in many posts given the impression that the fighters will be safe while attriting the drones. My posts not only point out the possibility that you are wrong but backed it up with the relevant rules.
The simple fact is that each actively seeking type-IIIXX drone will target the first object that meets it's criteria that is within 8 hexes of it's FA arc. If the criteria includes fighters, then a fighter will be targeted if within those conditions. If fighters are not within the criteria, the drone will ignore them. The point you seem to forget in your posts is that each individual drone can have it's own targeting criteria, so I seriously doubt you are going to get a massive amount of drones chasing down 1 fighter or shuttle.

My posts also point out that SPP can have the waves come from any direction and in any amount he chooses because of the sheer distance that can be used to set it up. He also can have up to 10% of each loadout per ship equiped with MW or Starfish drones to be waiting for the fighters (who, thanks to you believe they'll be safely shooting away at them).

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:18 am: Edit

Jeff: The fighters that are sent out can only detect the drones on that facing. Even if the 2 fighters on CAP split up and move out on different angles, 2/3 of the attacking drones will not be identified by fighters. Also, the fighters need to make their identification within 130 hexes from the planet or the drones can reach the planet before the fighters can make it back.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:35 am: Edit

William Soder:

I question if you actually have read the archives and the current conversations.

You are making assumptions about this scenario that may be wildly inaccurate.

You have argued both sides of the issues, and not managed to address the point.

Yes the fighters will be at risk. Everyone involved except you has accepted that.

The important issue, is not just the survival of the fighters. if the fighters survive, that would be a "good thing". but if the planet is destroyed, the value of the fighters drops...since their mission, role and purpose of existance in this scenario is to defend the colony.

The goal, sir, is to kill drones.

if the F-16's can kill them all, well and good.

if the IIIXX targeting allows them to kill themselves in fratricidal attacks on the shuttles, even better. please note that I admitted that I would not expect SPP to use that type of targeting, but admitted the possibility could happen.

Third, we still do not know if the drones are coming in waves from multiple directions, in a single stream of drones following a common course or in a single drone stack of 60 or so drones.

The Recon mission that Loren has talked about will get that information on one of the stacks, (which we hope will be the same for all the stacks).

Finally, who ever it was that told you that wearing the Uniform of the Federation Star Fleet was perfectly safe, lied to you.

There is a war on, incase you didnt notice, and civilians on Caledonia are relying upon us to keep them safe.

following your plan to let all 360 drones impact the planet without opposition (or almost as bad), waiting til the fighters, the drones and the planet are 1 hex apart before letting the fighters fire & launch drones (which I should remind you since you have apparently forgotten, ar limited to 1 target per turn (may fire 2 drones at the same target in the same turn...but since were talking a single drone out of the estimated 360 incoming IIIXX drones is pointless over kill).

I should also point out that such a procedure does not make best use of the F-16M drone capacity as it will (at best) have 1/2 of its drones left unused when the planet is a burned cinder.

Side note, I certainly hope that SPP used the CO points to buy starfish drones and Multiple warhead drones... that would be fewer standard warheads hitting the atmosphere and devastating the planet.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:41 am: Edit

One flight of the F-16Ms can go out and kill most of one facing of drones. But if we send that flight out at really long range, they will be useless against the other facings.

Keeping them closer in would allow them to launch all their drones at a decent range from the base and then use their mobility to bring their Gs to bare against the other facings.

Also, the fighters just cannot gather all that much useful information about those drones. THey are either targeted on the planet, or they are not. I doubt those drones were chucked to just off the fighter wing.

I would recommend getting the fighters up with their drones, and the phaser pod if you really want them, and have us orbit at a range of 40 hexes or so from the planet. When the drones come into range, we plink off our Type I rounds and HET to close with the planet again and bring the Gs and VIs to bare against the drones as they close on the planet and get stuck.