Archive through April 25, 2005
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board:
New Rules:
Orbital Defense Platforms:
Archive through April 25, 2005
Jeff, what exactly would the fighters gain, knowledge wise, on the drones that we need at a distance? They cannot be targeted on the ground bases. They might be targeted on some fighters, but those we wont know about till they fire their submunitions.
They are targeted on the planet. Sending the fighters off to intercept will prevent them from dealing with anything other than the one facing they are sent to deal with. THey will be unable to get back to the planet fast enough to do any good with point defense.
Richard Wells:
We may have to accept that 5/6 or 2/3 rds of the drone groups remain unscouted. Unless Col Knight decides to dispatch 2 fighters to each stack in an effort to attrition them, somewhat (at the risk of destruction of all fighters) the first we will actually learn the details of the incoming strike will be when it hits the 75 hex range of the 429th Early warning station.
At that point there will be just 75 impulses until drone strike...and that is not a lot of time to make changes to the dispositions of the 429th PDU assets.
We may have to accept that the fighters will get into range of using their t1 and t6 drones, but if they close to effective range of the phaser gatlings, risk destruction.
the F-16's will likely be able to account for up to 48 IIIXX drones using their drones... but if they get one shot with the phaser gatlings (and they would have to close to range 3 or better to do that) they could kill 3/4 drones per PG shot...so with 12 fighters they **might** kill a further 36 - 48 drones (in total (36+48=84)to(48+48=96) drones).
If the squadron were divided into two 6 fighter sections, and reinforced with a shatter pack (each) launched on a ballsitic course (say 8+ hexes from the planet...set to release at 12 hexes each "killer group" would have just enough power to totally kill 60 drones (it would be helpful to pick 2 drone stacks that had 60 drones in them)... that way the fighters are relatively safe (assuming all the IIIXX drones are destroyed in each group) from the remaining drone groups coming in on the other four vectors, (and the F-16's would have to trust the CHAFF if any MW drones blossom during the encounter... but they would have a fair chance at survival, none the less).
that would still leave 3 shatter packs, the 3 GAS, the 3 Def Sats, and the point defenses of the 429th to deal with the remaining 240 IIIXX drones.
not entirely safe, but if each of the killed drone stacks were targeted at a specific hex side of the planet, then 1/3 of the total would be safe from devastation. (unless SPP and William Soder have some unexpected drone tricks, sideslips or mixed targeting orders in the remaining drone groups.)
lets see, 240 drones left (we hope!) and 3 shatter packs. handled correctly, they might account for up to 36 more drones...so (240-36=204).
still a lot of drones to have to kill with just what the 429th has available.
Chris, there might be 3 things that happen...
First, verification that there are x number of drones present. (we don't at this point know for a fact that there are 60...that was an estimate provided by SPP and it could be accurate, or it could be slightly off, say 55 on 5 groups and 1 group of 75 or some other variable.
Second, if the drones are in a single stack (call it 60 IIIXX drones, for now) then a shatter pack will be very effective and will likely kill 12 IIIXX when it blossoms. if the drones are in some other formation say a stream of drones 1 hex wide 60 hexes long, the shatter pack will be less effective... and the admin shuttles and the GAS might be more effective using their phaser 3's and acting as decoy to distract any IIIXX that are set to kill fighters and shuttles. (why wast the 429th point defense on something not targeted against theplanet?!?)
third, if the drone groups are in waves of say 6 drones 10 ranks deep seaparated by 1 or 2 hexes apart.. the the shatter packs will be effective and the fighters have a chance to attrition the waves on the run in from the 100 hex point. (not entirely safe...but they will get opportunity to use the Type I drones, and ample chance to use the Type 6 when the range closes, and can aproach the waves to the point where if a type IIIXX turns towards the fighter, you know that it has accepted the fighter as a target...and thefighter will have a chance to kill it without worrying about the other 59 drones in the group (at least at that impulse, anyway 
.
as a sort of bonus, if the drones are set on a ballistic course, and ignore all targets short of theplanet, then Richard Wells scenario is an option. the fighters speed of 26 will be slowly over taken by the faster drones (speed 32) or a net difference of 6 hexes per turn.
so long as the fighters maintain phaser gatling range of the group, they can get multiple turns of phaser gatling shots...and a drone stream 60 hexes long would allow a single F-16M to get 10 shots with an average of 3 kills out of every 4 drones fired at. if each of the 12 F-16M's killed 30 drones "on the way in" that would account for all 360 drones in the wave, and no drone impacts on the planet.
I don't expect that SPP set it up that way... but he might have... but we wont know for sure until a fighter and pilot "eyeball" the drone groups.
and to do it in time to allow Col Knight the chance to dispatch the full squadron to intercept the drone groups means that the Recon has to go early.
unfortunately I cant quote you odds.
I dont know if it is a 0% chance, a 1% 5, 33% or what... but the potential payoff is significant enough to warrant the risk.
Richard Wells wants to limit it to 130 hexes...but IMO that is too close to be of much help. 10 turns (and assuming the report can be communicated back to base in real time instead of haveing to have the fighter travel back physically does us no good either.
Information is what we need, and we have no other way to get it other than the F-16M's.
It could be decisive, depending on what they find. (and report).
It should be noted that in some ways, a drone stack 60 hexes strong is the best tactic to use against the 429th. with starfish drones IIIXX MW drones and other things and using the targeting options suggested by William Soder, it is dangerous for the F-16M's to approach... but the Klingons shouldnt **KNOW** that the 429th lacks Transporter bombs... and 6 such TB's in the right place and time could destroy all 6 drone groups.
SPP would have knownt that, but the alter ego drone officer who planned the drone strike might not have had access to such information.
If so, the this nameless klingon (yes I know that would be seen as a blood oath insult, if he heard it.. but since Major wile is on the planet targeted by the drone strike this klingon planned, it might be considered appropriate) might have taken steps to minimize the effects of Transporter bombs or mines on his drone strike...and that means dispersing the drones over a larger area.
and that, in essence is not only why we need to know about the formation of the drones, but also how far said nameless klingon spread the drones out.
we already know he broke it up into 6 separate groups of up to 60 drones... he might have spread it further, just in case...
SPP: Am I to understand that there are drone waves incoming from each of six directions (A through F)?
Or are you saying that they are coming from generally one side but given way points they could be able to hit any side of the planet?
CFant: The primary information I am seeking is the drones speed (probably 32), their numbers and most importantly their spacing. It is their spacing that will determin my tactics. The Cap is ready to fly out imediately and has a good load to kill some drones wile they are out there.
I will have to gamble a bit that the waves in each group will be similar in formation. They may not be. One wave might be spread out with 18 drones every third hex. Another may be grouped up. There might be a leader wave with a large group behind it.
The main goal will of course be kill drones, kill drones, kill drones. Since we are on a planet we lose a turn raising the fighters through the atmosphere (Hmmm, gee Petrick, to go back to our earliest debates this might be exactly why it is better to have a spaced based reload facility than a planet side one.) we will not be able to reload the fighters with drones. So the most effective thing we can do is to kill drones with our drone loads on the fighters then expose the incoming enemy drones to the fighters gatlings as long as possible without getting them destroyed.
Remember, if the fighters go out to extreme range they could suddenly be intercepted a ships while they are killing drones. The fighters will have no defense but their phasers. They won't kill drones and they will be destroyed out of range of the planets defeses. There are five Klingon vessels out there. Petrick mention that this is a low risk attack. It would be low risk to engage the fighters at 300 hexes out but they probably won't bother just for the two Cap Fighters.
Captain Stovell materializes at comand operations and goes to his fire control board. He notes only Battery three at Encino is at weapon status 3.
"Lt. Lampert battery one status please."
"Lt. Conn battery two status please."
"Corporal Jones, any communications I've missed?"
Some questions/suggestions
Type IIIXX drones these are double space so do they take 6 damage to kill even though they only carry one playload space. (No access to Advanced misions this week)
Can type-1, well type IIIXX be diverted by chaff or is it only type VI?
Not to scaremonger but IF the drones enter the atmosphere on impulse 32 of a turn they impact impulse 1 the following turn IIRC so we aren't guarenteed an extra turn firing.
Fighters a reminder they can go 1 hex faster than their rated speed by clever mid-turn speed changes.
One tactic which might be viable depending upon the exact pattern of DB is for the squadron or part of it to use all its drones and one frontal pass to take out one arc of drones. It can then pursue another stream (or split and take on two).
The intercept angle will be out of the lead drones of that waves FA. Other drones will divert from their course making their fighter target obvious.
Any tactic along the above lines requires the fighters to intercept around the 150 hexes out point so that they have time to use 4 turns of drones on the wave but still close enough to the planet to get back in time to hit drones in the atmosphere.
"Sir Lt. Conn is in the infirmary after his climbing accident so Ensign Flusher is in command at Chico he is young but keen Sir" says Corporal Jones
OOC Geoff Conn can't play so there is a job for anyone who wants to command a phaser IV battery and save Cpt, Stovell from Weasley Flusher!
Thanks Alan Trevor for the reference.
Loren Knight:
Yes. The drones are coming from all six directions.
What are your orders? It is not clear to me as of yet if you are sending the cap on a distant intercept or are discussing the matter with your senior staff and otherwise vacillating indecisively.
Paul Stovell:
Yes, a type-IIIXX is a double space drone for purposes of loading it into a rack and other handling. But even though it is double space for handling, it still takes only four points of damage to kill it.
Further, you are a MARINE unit, not a NAVAL unit. If Lt Conn is down, his battery would be run by the Senior NCO, not by an Ensign.
Jeff Wile:
Sorry, but the Klingon scanners can detect that there are no ships present. They can tell that with S1 data under tactical intelligence. And they KNOW that PDUs not supported by ships do not have T-bombs. The same would be true if this was a Klingon PDU.
I had considered, as I noted before, having a freighter flee orbit in response to the alert, but simply decided that it might be a little much. (I had actually considered that the freighter had been in the midst of setting up a Commercial Platform when this happened, and that the platform is inoperable as its stabilizers have not finished spinning up, but that there was a crew of ten men still aboard it trying to keep the stabilizers going, but again decided that it might be a little much and dropped it.)
Further comment.
The joys of a print medium have led to a mis-communication. If you would go back and read the message with a little more forgiveness towards my apparently poor choice of words, I never said that you WERE riding Captain Kass, I said that you MIGHT be riding Captain Kass. It was intended as a line of roleplaying and a chance to establish some dynamic tension. If you go back to the scene I wrote where the PF made its pass, you would see that there was a moment's hesitation before the alarm was sounded, but it was not a large gap. The Sensor operator was indeed "surprised" by the PF's sudden appearance, and it took him a moment to adjust to the reality. But boredom had set in, even though Kass was running drills (another item I noted in the original scene) to try to keep the men focused and alert. And perhaps he had run too many (too many drills can fog the men's minds as much as not enough, it is a fine balance, and you usually only know if you have hit it after the crisis is passed).
Col,
Lt. Fant here, sir. Your last transmission was garbled. Say again, how many fighters do you want going up after one of those drone flights. I can be up with the rest of Banshee Flight to join the CAP in 30 seconds. We need a choice of which facing you want intercepted.
SPP,
You are just saying that to be kind
To be clear in stopping me employing a Weasley!
To be correct perhaps anyone who wishes to be Sergeant in command of Battery number two of the 429th should contact Colonel Loren.
Too late to edit previous message.
Col Loren,
OOC- I'd suggest direction D for the CAP as its likely to be the most "typical" DB mission.
direction A has the capital and half our bases while B and F are baseless.
One possible DB plan would be to send all the northern hemisphere AFB drones so as to impact the A hexside and let the CDE drones hit the side they are facing.
It would only take a one hex offset to see drones comming from directions B and F to hit hexside A.
Alternatively send the CAP out A'wards as this is the most likely one for the whole squadron to be sent after if a "Big Wing" tactic is pursued.
I ran a quick and dirty simulation yesterday. An F-16M can, by judicious combinations of speed changes and HETs, get off all four drones and arrange firing opportunities for the Phaser-G at 9-15, 2, 2, and 9-15 hexes, with another shot from a phaser pod (dropped immediately after) at range 1. If we also adopt CFant's suggestion that the fighters be close enough to shoot the drones while they are tied up in the atmosphere, that could be another close-range firing opportunity. Granted, this assumes the fighters are not targetted and picked off by any drones set for fighter targets, but if we launch drones at any bombardment drones with active scanners that will (potentially) help with that threat. Off course, if the drone wave is not one big stack, then the fighters can obtain better, and possibly more, firing opportunities.
General comment:
OOC
It all comes down to choices.
l. launch the Recon flight, of 2 ftrs, or not.
2. launch the full squadron for a (distant, moderate, or close) range intecept of 1,2 or more of the drone groups.
3. star castle the planet and trust that the combined interactions of the 429th's fighters shuttles Def Sats and ground bases will be sufficient to kill all of the drones in 4 or less firing opportunies(starting at range 100 hexes for the phaser VI's).
as many people have pointed out, there are problems with all of the options.
but the clock is ticking and a choice must be made...or do not act, and SPP will choose for us.
edit
We should also remember that we also have the choice of picking the impulse that the drone groups reach range 101.
SPP graciously allowed Col Knight the choice.
so far as I know, Col Knight has not yet picked one. (and if he fails to, spp will choose.)
I have earlier suggested the default value of impulse #1...
let me make a further suggestion, what if we picked a impulse that 3 turns of speed 32, leaves the drone groups at range 9 from the planet at the end of turn 3?
that means the PDU could get a firing opportunity on impulse 32, at the best range for that turn, and, the weapons (phasers) will get a chance to recycle (1/4 turn delay, or 8 impulses) at the point where the drones are 1 hexe away from the planet, and havent yet entered the atmosphere.
it also means that the shatter pack loaded admin shuttles would have 2 opportunities to get pilots transported aboard so that they could return to the planet...or provide additional targets for the anti shuttle targeted IIIXX drones... at this point, any drones distracted from hitting the planet will help the defense.
I think a Moderate range intercept of 2 drone facings is the way to go. Gives us enough time to get out there and deal with the wave and be moving back towards the planet to assist in point defense.
Steve Petrick:
I defer to your knowledge of the rules.
but I would suggest, respectfully, that the "fog of war" does pertain in this kind of scenario.
there are examples in history of combat units having weapons and equipment that the "book" (tables of organization) would indicate should not be present.
take for example the feild modifications to certain B-25 bombers in the solomon islands, south pacific campaign, ww2. they mounted in some air craft 4, 6 and some times 12 fifty cal machine guns in the nose of the bomber and gave the pilot a fire control system (actual a bullseye etched int the window infront of his chair in the cockpit!) or even the feild expedient of mounting a 75 mm artillery gun in the nose of the bomber...that one was so successful it led to factory production of similar weapons in new B-25's and a new air craft called the Grizzley (I forget which company produced it and the designation...it was too late to see service in ww2, but...) or what about the pt boats? some mounted 37 mm anti tank guns "appropriated" from the army units "but sir, it was just sitting there on the beach, no body watching it..."
some pt boats mounted 81 mm mortors co axially mounted with the 40mm AA guns and, IIRC some were even equiped with flame throwers (mind you, this on a plywood boat!)
there are reports that some infantry battalions were reinforced with sherman tank companies...while the "book" insisted that there was a doctrine in place for the employment of armor somewhat different than what happened in the field.
In short, the intelligence that the klingons have about the 429th may be wrong, or at the very least, they should be prepared for the possibility that the intelligence is inaccurate.
according to "the book" the 429th should have 2 squadrons, not just one, and I am aware of the pirate attack the deprived us of squadrone #2... but Star Fleet could have diverted another squadron as a temporary replacement... perhaps a bomber squadron of obsolete B52's? a casual squadron of wornout (poor quality F-18's operating out of casual fighter bases? surplus F-4's or F-8's... how about a private entrprenuer with a security contract that is staging a squadrons of F-7's at Cassandra IV prior to being picked up by his convoy of freighters that used up their old F-7's in a pirate attack, and need new fighters to fill the fighter shuttle boxes on the extra modules that the freighter have?
just because it didnt happen does not mean that the Klingons have to account for thepossibility...especially against a foe as resilient, resourceful and cunning like the UFP Star Fleet! (and Marine corps!)
Jeff Wile: I like you plan for Impulse 9, turn 3. Calculate that impulse for me please.
CFant: That last note is probably what I'll do.
SPP: My orders require one bit of info first. You stated that DB ships orbited our possition and launched from six possitions. Which direction was the first wave launched?
To: Col. Knight
From: GMG-6
1) Plan to search for hiding places of possible Klingon stay behind or new infiltrators should be worked up by Infantry Maneuver Company (Chabot et al) as they will be the ones required to execute this plan.
2) I would be willing to assume command of the Infantry Maneuver Comapny as required; General Defense Company would then require either a) direct control of it's operations at 7 (repeat seven) ground bases and of it's admin shuttles by Batt. Staff or b) assignment of a suitable gfo to coordinate operations.
3) What are your orders are as to the admin shuttles; relocate them to the fighter bases, prepare them for use as ground support/ transportation as part of a ground search operation, or other?
4) All ground military units under my command are now fully deployed under SOP drone-1A.
5) UNORDIR, all General Defense Company infantry units will continue defense per above plan.
Grafton commanding
All Admin shuttles are to be used in the coming space combat.
To: Capt. Chabot
From: GMG-6
1) Per message above, SOP drone 1A has this unit dispersed at all 7 ground bases, please advise as to your intent so we can cordinate. General Defense Compoany is fully deployed at this time, per the SOP.
2) I have not yet recieved confirmation that LtCol Baluda and/or his staff have reported for duty. I have intercepted messages from Maj Ford, but he has not reported for duty with his unit at this time.
3) UNORDIR, units of the planetary Home Defense Batt. will be held as a reserve force at the GMG. UNORDIR, they will be dispersed per plan Shelter-1 before the drones arrive.
Grafton, commanding
To: Col Knight
From: GMG-6
1) Acknowledged.
2) Do you plan to use them as manned (P-3) combat platforms or as scatter/ shatter packs?
3) If they are to be prepped as scatter/ shatter packs they will have to be staged to (wherever) to be loaded with (whatever). There are no suitable munitions at the GMG base, though we do have the necessary materials to prepare them as suicide shuttles.
4) UNORDIR, admin shuttles are being scrambled now with full crews and will be routed towards (where ever) under the presumption that you plan to use them as scatter/ shatter packs.
5) Admin shuttle units (#'s X, Y and Z whatever) will be on channel (whatever) and will hail Lt Palmer (or whomever is HQ comm OD) upon taking off and forming up enroute.
6) GMG will have pilots on standby at the transporter room so they can subsequently be transported aboard "inert" shuttles.
Grafton, commanding.
off camera, does any other base have transporters?
off camera: How many drone VI's do we have after the F16's take off with their rails full?
2 reloads per fighter is only 48 more in storage, which isn't many.
Jeff Wile:
The attack deprived you of not just the second fighter squadron, but the ground bases to support that squadron. That that squadron was mentioned at all was my doing, as Loren started off with just one squadron for his PDU.
In any case, diverting another squadron is not an option because THERE ARE NO BASES for long-term operations. There are no bomber bases at all, so diverting a squadron of B-52s is out of the question. While fighters can operate from a casual base, that is a SHORT term operation, not long-term. By and large, even though the topic has been operating for years, the PDU deployment has only been a few months real time to date (probably no more than two).
PDUs generally do not have T-bombs because operationally they are "PFs" and they cannot. There is no "leader" unit ground base that has T-bombs. Prior to some idiot named Steven Petrick convincing SVC to add transporter repeaters to DefSats, there was little use for T-bombs because in addition to being "PFs", small military ground bases lacked Transporters. Small Fighter Ground Bases have no transporters (and thus no need for T-bombs), Medium Fighter Ground Bases have no transporters (and thus no need for T-bombs), Ground Based Defense weapon systems (Phaser, disruptor, photon, fusion, hellbore, drone, plasma, or PPD) have no transporters (and thus no need for T-bombs). A typical battalion has six transporters, one on each of the Small Warning Stations, and four on the Small Ground Military Garrison, but even that is a relatively new thing since prior to Fed and Emp there was no real effort to define a PDU, and prior to Marine Assault no one (not even SVC) knew that a PDU had a GMG. All SVC really new was that he had decided that a PDU was three "guns", one "fighter squadron" (with either one Medium Fighter Ground Base or two Small Fighter Ground Bases) to which a PF Ground Base got added later.
If at some future date SVC decides to start giving (in SFB, in Fed and Emp they would have no effect being subsumed into the defense) an ability for a PDU to have T-bombs, then they will have to be accounted for.
But if I start letting you violate existing rules, what will be the point of doing this?