Another idea that might be worth considering for SFB, is a PDU based campaign game.

The planetary defense has to defend against X enemy attacks, type to be determined randomly each round.

Missions might include:
Rescue Friendly Ship / Freighter away from planet (uses Fighters/PFs vs ?)
Launch Fighter / PF strike vs Enemy / Pirates
Stop Commando Drop (as demonstrated by the G1G flyby)
Defend vs Drone Strike
Defend vs Fighter/PF Strike
Defend against Enemy / Pirate Raid
Defend against Planetary Attack

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 01:50 pm: Edit

We could recapture some of the original debate which was whether it was better to have a spae based defence or a ground based defense or a combination of the two, excluding actual Base Stations and Star Bases.

So far, I can see that the small bases is too vulnerable and would only improve things under a highly limited set of curcomstances. A new issue is the use of T-Bombs by ground bases. A small set of t-bombs would be very valuable in this situation. As I'd stated before the GMG sort of sits as a command base and as such might paralell a PF Leader. As such it might be allowed T-bombs. In this way you don't open the gate for all ground bases to have them but do allow the GMG to have them and so a PDU would have them normally since most PDUs would have a GMG.

Should I submit this to SVC as a proposal?

Would there be any F&E implications? I wouldn't think so.

By Richard Sherman (Rich) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 01:55 pm: Edit

Easily the most interesting and interactive thread on this BBS.

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 02:41 pm: Edit

SPP, let me add that your position on this thread woudl require a FULL TIME moderator. What you gave us here ROCKED!

1) We explored the problems of finding infiltrators/ leave behinds and conquering/ occupying a planet.
2) Long term PDU design difficulties and perhaps the need for a module M2, with ground bases and perhaps an expansion of base types.
3) The FOG (way too many cooks for the stew here) of war
4) The very real need for skiffs and mobile support forces.
5) A "standard PDU" has several problems dealing with a "same BPV" opponent, becuase the PDU has to be ready for lots of things, the opponent only a single threat/ objective.

I think this whole topic was brilliant and fun (in case you couldn't tell) and will miss it. YOU just need a staff...

This thing is like a moderated chain story. COOL

By Michael C. Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Part 2

A problem is that this SFB scenario depended on Loren to COMMAND everything like in the game...

Maj Wile and I were trying to bridge over the minutae and have some fun, because in the real world, Col Loren should have said "Squadron leader XXX, send the CAP out" and then let the fly boys do their thing. "Ground Commander YYY, place your people on red alert."

Welcome to the world of no comm discipline. Me too.

Part 3 This entire scenario shows WHY a J-3 works 16 hours a day planning an op. The darn contingencies and alternates and..

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 03:50 pm: Edit

I concur with MCG.

We hit any number of bottle necks in this exercise from SPP limited time to Loren's limited time to communication lags where individuals needed to respond to 1 -2 issues before some other event could proceed.

As a measure of interest, look back at the number of non participants who volunteered opinins, rules research or specific knowledge at key points in the discussion.

we are not talking 3 or 4 people, more like thirty or forty when you add up both "story lines" since 2003.

This is a feature that brought people to SFU discussion boards multiple times a day to see if anything new had been posted...compared to the 1 time every other day that is sufficient for most other discussions.

The best part from a participant POV was that it was an open forum. people could jump in at virtually any time and make a contribution.

something to consider, I would think.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 05:52 pm: Edit

I'd be up from trying something again. But we would need a commmanding officer who could be on the board every day and check e-mail a good deal of the time.

No offense Loren, but you just were not here much, do to real life I am sure.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 07:43 pm: Edit

Sigh.

All right.

This is more or less what has happened.

Drone strike warning.

Scambling to get ready to receive.

Decision to send CAP, CAP defined as one F-16M and one F-16EM, flight lead Richard Sherman, from Banshee Section of the fighter squadron.

Continuing efforts to move civilians to shelters, ready the battalion. Discussion, BUT NO DECISION MADE to fit rest of fighter squadron with phaser-pods or not.

CAP encounters a Gunboat. PROBLEM: The situation was that the CAP on encountering could only make two choices, try to fight through to see if there is in fact a bombardment drone mission behind the Gunboat, or disengage. In either case, CAP is out of battle. Because it was a small engagement, GM (me) decided to allow Richard Sherman to play it out (not really do EM and run counters around, but go through the motions to see what would happen so as to allow him to post an exciting scene of action). Because those literally were the only two choices (which would have been explained in "the Bar" after everything settled), I did not very carefully define and spell out to Richard why those were his only two choices and gave him start distances. Richard "ran with" the start distances to get back to the planet, and posted a message stating so. Rather than go through telling Richard "uh no, you cannot do that." I decided to let it go.

Reaction to Richard's report, rest of Banshee ordered to launch immediately and go help. As no decision had yet been made on Pods, and as Loren Defined the distances based on max speed of the fighters without pods (both CAP coming back and Banshee's going out), I had to define that Banshee launched with no pods (which was better than taking Loren's statement of the speeds and defining that Banshee had dropped any pods). Banshees led by a Chris Fant "persona" as Chris himself was the Lt in charge of the ground base that Banshee launched from.

At this juncture I will note that Loren was busy with real world things, and frankly I decided as the GM to use that as a "reality", i.e, the battalion commander has to placate the planetary government (why did he have to be at a party with all those bigshots when this broke out? . . . Not something I intended, and yet it does happen and the result was that Loren as Battalion Commander was distracted and not necessarily thinking through everything, and it can happen that way for real. Ever been given a "Patrol Order" by a Company Commander who just got that "Dear John" letter from his wife?)

Loren, I THINK, had intended for Banshee flight to, in essence, "Go to Mile Marker 130 and wait for the CAP to link up." But that was not the order he gave (distracted), so I had to judge things on what he did order, and that sent Banshee out to intercept at somewhat longer range.

Banshee linked up. At that point I (as the GM) had to resolve what happened. I looked it (6xF-16M versus one Gunboat), and took into account the "mission orders" of the Gunboat Commander. I then Rationalized it all down and resolved that the event was going to result in the destruction of 28 Klingon bombardment drones, the crippling of one F-16M, and the need of the others to INITIALLY try to protect that one would result in no chance for the Banshee to get back to the planet in time to have any further effect on what happened there. It was possible that another fighter might be crippled, and that in the end one or two of the six would be destroyed, but I had not worked through all that yet.

So all I was trying to get Chris and Richard to do was post their first contact, the drone situation, and the lost time due to the crippled fighter. There was no chance they were going to kill, or even significantly damage the Gunboat.

Chris complained that the EWF was the fighter crippled, and I could have changed that. But I was at the last confused by how Chris knew that the Gunboat Knew which fighter was the EWF. The Gunboat DID know, but I was not aware that either Chris or Richard had figured out how the Gunboat could have known since it was never close enough with a positive EW shift even, to figure it out (and it never had a postive EW shift up to that point).

So the resolution of, and posting of, that first clash between the Gunboat and Banshee (which takes place beyond your effective sensor range, but would happen before your sensors could reasonably detect anything else) became the hold up. Plus the need that even after that report, Loren needed to issue the orders to get everything else moving and set up.

To be clear, Banshee was acting on the original orders, i.e., pushing the Gunboat back in order to see if there were drones behind it (the original mission WAS reconnaissance), and they did that by launching a spread of drones that forced the Gunboat to defend itself and not come into effective range of its own weapons until it was had fallen back on the bombardment drones it was "escorting".

That is where things stand.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Wow.

a lot of "back stage actions" that we might have suspected, but couldnt "know" was happening.

It would be easy to second guess any actions taken by any of the participants... but I suggest that all of us who were not involved have no business critiqueing this episode.

Richard and Chris were the commanders on the field of battle, as it were, and it was their call to make.

Besides, they "killed" 28 drones that the PDU would have had to deal with... first effective results of any unit of the 429th PDU. and they did it without losing any fighters (one crippled is still a fighter that could return to base...assuming the base survives).

I would hope people will support Richard, Steve and Chris for the efforts they made in this exercise.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 08:56 pm: Edit

So if one fighter was crippled why was the entire flight held down. I would think that at least two fighter could have broke formation and continued to kill drones. Three to protect one fighter against one G1 should have done pretty well.

But out there that was not my call.

SPP: You are right, I would want Ghost flight to have phaser pods. I think those were to be loaded last so Banshee flight could have taken off before those were loaded.

Even if Banshee flight could not return they could have called in the recon info, right?

What is the size of the wave Banshee flight encountered? They killed 28 out of how many?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 09:16 pm: Edit

loren, the drones speed is 32.

the uncrippled F-16M speed is 26 (27 if using the mid turn speed change rule option.

sounds like the drones are in a single "stack" for lack of a better term to use.

28 may have been the best they could do with a G1 gunboat "hiding in the stack"...

looks like the 28 "kills" represents the single encounter Banshee flight had as the drones passed by on the way to Cassandra IV.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Hmmm, ya could be.

CFant: Actually I was here multiple times every day. The problem I had was being able to lay out this whole thing and view the big picture (something only I and Petrick had the full responsability to do). I have a stack of print outs, SSDs, small hex grids etc. I've read the posts one by one sometimes with my wife bugging me to get going to work.

Then there was the situation where I hit the wall and was waiting on the report for Banshee flight. That was the next step in the sequence of things and I didn't want to lay down plans before I had the facts (or the report at least). It seems I lost half my squadrons support for that recon report, I deserved to have it before I finalized orders.

All told I have a dozen or more hours (not counting the efforts of three years ago) into this and we didn't make it to T1.

Now it's true that I didn't always post. Sometimes it was all I could do to just catch up on all the new posts by others.

By Stewart W Frazier (Frazikar) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 10:00 pm: Edit

SPP, even if the G1/Banshee fight is outside effective range (150 for the GWS) there are other strategic levels (S2-S4) that could be used to 'track' the action or show if there are other active G1's out there (Lt Frazier asked for a full scan and I think one of the GWSs).

There is the possibility that the tactical/strategic interaction between the two TacIntell systems aren't fully known as yet (and may need to be for GPD)...

By Barton Pyle (Bart) on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 10:42 pm: Edit

Well all, I plan on joining soon. I am being sent to GA. for a few days. I'll be back as soon as I get home. Cya then.

By David Crew (Catwholeaps) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 07:17 am: Edit

Aside: The G1 can work out the EWF by deduction. It initially met two fighters, which fled, but fled from outside the effective tacint range of a normal fighter (ergo one is an EWF or has a sensor pod - but they aren't slowed*, so they aren't carrying pods -> one is an EWF). In addition the EW status says one of those two is an EWF. Then when the fighters launch drones to scare the G1 off, one doesn't, AND that one is one of the original two seen by the G1 ergo it is the EWF. Simple.

Of course there might be a GPD like role-playing reason it knew (spy in the mix, broken star fleet code etc) - but SFB will tell you too.

Cat.

* The G1 is guessing they aren't slowed from guessing they are packed/mega'd F-16's not F-18B's. But it would be odd for the two fighters to risk almost certain destruction by not fleeing at top speed for an F-18B - and they didn't. Of course once the fighters reveal gattlings this all just adds into the mix of tacint derived by the gunboat.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 02:52 pm: Edit

Loren, You gave good support for the exercise, while some may be critical of having to wait at times, you still "came thru" for us.

If we continue this type of exercise, or start another one, I have a few suggestions for people to consider:

1. the top commander makes up his rules of engagement.

no micro managing what drones go on what fighter or if the sensor pod is carried or which pilot goes on what mission, that is what the squadron commander is for.

same for the other ground bases, the CO gives his orders, the local commander carries the orders out to his best ability. if a player is not available for "the slot" at the time a action must be completed, assume a NPC or elisted person handles it...keep the story moving, not frozen for hours or days at a time.

2. establish a combat system. (I dont care what) but it must be understood that combat is combat and role playing is role playing. that players are given the chance to relate their experiences are one thing, but when "the results are in" its too late to change anything but how you report it in the narative.

3. the "action" needs to be handled differently. we killed days figuring out the G1G flyby and the snipe hunt after words...and managed not to get any tangible results.

Maybe a schedule? say SPP (or the GM) says he will be online at a specific time...and will interact for 1 or 2 hours to resolve a set peice action. if the players participate, the GM use the input and resolves the action, if a player is not avialable at the set time, his ractions are handled for him (or a NPC takes over) and the game continues.

that way inbetween times can still be used for the "housekeeping functions" and things that occur between combat scenarios. (such as getting that battle damaged F-16M repaired!)

All in all, I enjoyed the experiment and hope we could do more of it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Okay.

Two things.

The data I posted in my last missive in this topic was a "where we are". I thought doing that alone was enough to say "okay, I have agreed to restart this".

This means that we are waiting for the (hopefully) exciting account by Banshee of "what happened" which in turn will trigger actions at the planet, i.e., Banshee managed to "push back" the PF, discovered a concentration of 28 bombardment drones (they have been told of certain other actions). They had pretty much decided on a course of action, but had failed to pick up on the "no pods on the fighters" problem, so they should adjust things slightly for that.

Second, if we can get to that, I will have a "persona" explain just why Banshee is not going to get back in time to help. At that point we can move forward to the next item on the "drone agenda".

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 03:47 pm: Edit

I can accept that Banshee cannot make it back in time to help but what I really want at this point is a Recon report on the composition of the drone wave. You said a concentration of 28 drones, this might mean that the entire wave is NOT in one big stack. So I want data on their number, formation and speed.

However it is presented is fine, just so as I get it before moving on to the next step. Unless there is some reason Banshee is out of communication.

Jeff Wile: Thanks. I'll be back later to read over your post more carefully.

By Raymond Ford (Raymond) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Naturally, I'm leaving town just as things look like they are starting back up. Be back Friday.

By David Keyser (Riov_Tafv) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 04:35 pm: Edit

With the mop bucket pushed into a corner and the PLO shoved into the Comm station to relieve the NCO there for five minutes.

"Banshee six, this is Haunted House. Come in, over."
"Banshee three, this is Haunted House. Come in, over."

Turning to the Lt that has the deck.
"Sir, There doesn't seem to be any jamming. The flight just doesn't seem to be answering for some reason. Maybe damage took out their radio. Either that or they are too busy to respond."

Well, the Sgt is back. So off to cleaning latrines I go.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Loren Knight:

And that is the point. Banshee needed to be resolved up to a point, and that point is basically how they are dealing with the drones they encountered. Then the questions of "Are these the only drones coming from this direction? Why won't that gunboat leave us alone now that the drones are destroyed? He hit Banshee #?, and we have to decide if we are going to try to keep him from killing Banshee #?, head for the barn, push on to look for more drones, try to do all three or just two?"

The G1 pulled away after taking its best shot when Banshee tried to take care of the drones it encountered, then maneuvered to a flank to parralled Banshee if it tried to go home so that it could rip in and hit Banshee again, and again, and again. If Banshee splits up, say three fighters heading home, and two staying with the cripple, except the cripple and the two that stay with it not to make it back. The Gunboat has superior speed, and superior weapons reach. Two fighters and a crippled held to the speed of the cripple WILL DIE before they can make it back to 100 hexes, unless more help comes. Note, the two uncrippled fighters would be faster . . . but would be the Gunboat's primary targets, i.e., they are pinned down trying to save the cripple, and will themselves be crippled and then all three will be destroyed. Unless they abandon Banshee #? and disengage by acceleration.

If they fired at range zero, and did not launch any drones to counter any of the drones, in theory 8 of the bombardment drones continued. The problem is that that evil gunboat dropped two drones inside the drone stack before dropping back behind it. Banshee has no way of determining what those dones were, or what they were targeted on. (For all Banshee knew, one or both was a multi-warhead or Starfish drone, possibly even a type-IV version, that is, however, unlikely.) So Banshee had to deal with two drones launched by a non-bombardment platform that could only be targeted on two of their fighters (and it was possible that one or both drones could have been standard type-IVs). The obvious solution was to capitalize on their slower speed to launch type-VIs at those drones, but Chris called for the EWF to engage one with a type-VI, and said he would kill the other with a single phaser-3 shot, apparently from range one, which means a 33% chance that a type-I would survive (Richard Sherman had noted that he was going to recommend engaging the Gunboat Specific drones with two phaser-3 shots each, which was reasonable at that point in the engagement) and then smack one of the fighters. Up to this point, Banshee has NO IDEA what kind of PF it is. That was something they were going to find out just after they made their strafing pass on the drone stack. The only thing they could be certain of about the Gunboat's drones was that they were not "externally armored", i.e., they moved speed 32.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 06:50 pm: Edit

If we are going with this then I had a request for orders in to Cpt. Stoval (I think) about a week ago. He asked for status a couple of days later, having missed my earlier message AFAICT.

Status report on battery A:
I have NOT warmed phaser capacitors as yet. I plan to do so on my own initiative when an enemy unit is confirmed within 5 light seconds or less of the planet, but otherwise see no reason to stress the equipment prior to need and without orders.

I have submitted a suggestion that the local NG infantry or infantry from the marine garrison provide additional support for the ground bases given the possibility of infiltrators on planet.

I am prepared to make power available to the colocated bases through the grid, although I have not had any indications that anyone is drawing on it.

Lt. Doug Lampert
Battery 1 commander

By John Erwin Hacker (Godzillaking) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 07:36 pm: Edit

Hi everyone:

Has anyone done up an SSD of these yet?. If they have, could they possibly post them?.

Thanks

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 08:44 pm: Edit

John Hacker, good suggestion, it would aid matters greaatly if some one would post the 429th SSD's (notated with hex side facing). (hint, hint...)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 08:53 pm: Edit

COl Knight?

where is your "persona" located?

are you in the OPS center? (and if so would you care to assume command?)

are you in flight operations one of the fighter ground bases?

Are you in Communications?

You seem to have a comm link from some where, but I suggest that your rightfull place is in your headquarters leading your unit in battle.

respectfully,

Major Wile, S3 OPS GMG
Annapolis,
Cassandra IV,