Archive through May 04, 2005
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Archive through May 04, 2005
As to the question of whether or not the G1 completed its mission. A matter of opinion.
Let me point out that the G1K is being "flown" with an air of "what does the PF crew know?"
Right now what it does know is:
The fighters launched an initial wave of five drones when they linked up. These all flew more than 12 hexes, and were therefore not type-VI.
The fighters launched six drones on encountering the bombardment drones. One of these was definitely a type-I (the Gunboat labed it at range one before destroying it with a phaser-2).
The Gunboat knows it crippled one fighter, so that fighter has no more drones.
It knows one of the fighters is an EWF, and has one type-VI drone remaining.
Of the other four fighters, they have somewhere between eight type-VI drones, and five type-VI drones and three type-I drones (because he knows the drone he labed did NOT come from the fighter he crippled, and it was a type-I drone). So the six fighters have up to three type-I drones. And that is driving the Gunboat's tactics somewhat. He does not really want to be hit by one type-I at all (a down shield that a phaser shot or two might penetrate), and DEFINITELY does not want to be hit by two type-I drones on the same shield.
The reality is that the fighters have only type-VI drones remaining.
It also realized that at least 1 of the Fighters was a Mega-fighter (as it was crippled going extremely fast, and not destroyed as if it had a WBP).
Does it know that they are F16's for sure, or do they still think they are F18s? (IE did the F16s fire a PG, or more than 2-3P3s)
Scott,
He knows they are F16M's.
SPP:
Just confirming that the crippled fighter was hit at a range of 4 or less. Range 5 or greater would seriously damage, but not cripple, the fighter.
Scott Tenhoff:
The F-16s fired phaser-Gs to attrit the drones, so he knows they are not F-18s or any variant thereof. It is possible that they are F-16Cs with booster packs, but the Gunboat commander does not believe that as their tactics make no sense for that sort of combination. They kept moving at speed 26 even when they were in range of the Gunboat's weapons, and did not drop out of boost to engage the drones while the Gunboat was closing. It would be asking too much for the Federation pilots to be so "incompetent" as to remain in boost when they were closing on the Gunboat and knew they were going to engage the drones. Booster Pack fighters would have been more likely to line up in front of the drones, then drop out of boost to engage them as the Gunboat approached so as to make themselves less vulnerable to the damage. Mega-fighters might have done that in an effort to conceal that they were megafighters, but these did not.
If they had dropped to speed 13 as the Gunboat was approaching behind the drones, the Gunboat MIGHT have assumed they were F-18s, i.e., an older earlier version of the F-18 limited to speed 13 without packs or mega systems (since it knew they launched type-I drones, standard F-16s cannot launch type-I drones). After they fired on the drones the only possibilities were F-16Cs with booster packs, F-16Ms, or F-16CMs.
At range four, with a one shift against him, he learned they were F-16Ms. He does not know what drones they have left (he had to fight through the second wave rather than run it out and then destroy any that were left after moving 12 hexes), by type, but he knows how many drones they have.
Banshee Lead: "All Banshee's close with and destroy the drone stack. Weapons free, weapons free!"
As the fighters closed to intercept the drone wave, the G1 came about and settled in directly behind the drone stack...and added to it.
Banshee 6: "Vampire, vampire! More tracks! Bandit has launched two drones, close parallel with the drone stack, consistent speed and heading!"
Banshee Lead: "Acknowledged. Stork, take those two Bandit drones OUT! Banshees...push that bandit back! Drones away!"
Once again, near simultaneous calls of "Fox 2!" rang out, except for Banshee 6, calling "Fox 1!"
As the drones began to close with one another, the G1 launched another two drones.
Tank, now on the forward tip of the flight's tight formation, was initially confused. No Gunboat he knew of had C-racks, did they? And the G1 launched a little too quickly for a C-rack anyway. What the devil? Then, it dawned on him...
Banshee 3: "Merlin, that bandit is a fighter-killer!"
Banshee 2: "What?"
Banshee Lead: "Too late!"
A second after Banshee 6's counter-drone impact, space lit up with weapons fire as the 6 fighters opened up on the Klingon drones, preceded only by two quick phaser pulses from Banshee 6. As for the enemy the gunboat fired on the remaining 5 fighter drones...and a fighter.
And hit.
Suddenly light was everywhere around Tank. He felt the heat. His fighter began to shake apart as the excess disruptor energy played along his craft's tiny hull.
Banshee 3: "I'm hit, I'm hit!"
Banshee 4: "Tank, break left!"
The G1 once again, through the use of counter-drones, anti-drones, and phaser fire, destroyed the inbound drones. It began to move off to the port flank of the fighter formation.
Banshee Lead: "Banshee's come about, tight turn NOW!
As Banshee 3 moved off in an opposite turn to the enemy, the five remaining fighters threw themselves into a variety of tight maneuvers, following the remaining drones.
Banshee Lead: "Fuzzy, give me status on the enemy drones!"
OOC:
SPP, I'm confused on your posted drone tally (May 03, 2005 - 05:20 pm). If we destroyed 19 drones, plus picked off the two type-VI's from the G1, wouldn't that leave a total of 9 drones (3 of which are damaged), not 11? (24 P3+1 type VI...2 P3 on enemy type VI, our type VI counter-drones, leaving 22 P3, killing 19 and wounding 3)?
Please confirm remaining drone total before I continue with the "color" commentary.
And yeah, for the record, I would have deployed a bit differently, including using some speed changes, but since you already posted...
I hope Banshee flight is firing at drones all the way to maximum. Even if you are only able to do one or two points to a few more drones at long range that will help. Drones with only 3 points left will be far easier to kill with planetary based Ph-3s.
The same goes for Ghost flight. If you don't kill a drone but damage it then let it go. Drones with a point left can be killed easilly enough. But do try to kill as many as possible!
The thing to remember guys is not only is there a limited number of phaser-3's to counter drones with there is a limited number of damage points. Killing a drone with 3+4 points is a waste of damage points. Out of the atmosphere the planet will have trouble scoring guarranteed kills (even though planetary Ph-3s don't suffer the ecm penalty from the atmosphere).
Some drones will get by so let damaged drones get by first.
SPP: I just realized that it might be worth it to define a few restrictions for new established PDUs (for RPG play anyway). For instance, a Planetary Defense phaser doesn't pay the penalty for atmosphere because it's in a solid possition and has had time for calibration. But what about one that has just been set up. How long does it take to calibrate them. A day, a week? Don't they need to send up target drones to make such calibrations? Don't they need some time to experience some changes in weather conditions?
Also, how long does it take for a PDU to become fully operational? In SFB I suppose not too long but is that really fully operational or is it a quick set up to be useful in the current situation and after which there is still much to do.
Got to dig ditches, install power grids, clear areas for this and that, make roads etc.
These things would be valuable information to Prime Directive. I know there will be a PD Ground Forces book. I hope you and SVC will write lots of stuff like this in there.
Loren,
shouldn't the flights concentrate on killing drones they've damaged, to reduce the number of targets the PDU is facing?
Since the fighter are at long range, they wont be able to pass 'targeting' data back to the PDU, so when the drones are within range of the PDU, they will ALL look undamaged, which means you'll have to allocate fire accordingly.
However, if the Fighters do 1 more point at long range to a drone that that they did 3 points to during the point blank shot, that's one less target that the PDU has to worry about.
Craig:
I agree. I'd prefer that if the choice were between letting 2 cripple drones go, or hitting 1 drone 2 times to ensure that its "dead"... Id rather you killed the drone.
we have a finite limit to drone killing weapons...and note w may be using phaser 4's in that role also... to paraphrase an old statement...the only good IIIXX drone is a dead drone!
It depends on the presense of G1's or not. I agree that while they are at long range (beyond 35 from the planet) they should shoot to kill. Once they get with in R35 then the above would apply. This means the planet can kill some drones at R3 if the timing allows.
Also, they should, out to R40 allow the planetary Ph-4's to pick off a damaged drone or two.
I'm not sure if the fighters would have to pass the target info. I think the planet is capable of determining which drones are damaged by itself. I'd have to check Tac Intel on that. We do have a couple Scout Channels available.
If within range of the GWS, shouldn't you be able to track which drones are damaged?
Richard Sherman:
It depends on which firing instructions are used.
If one type-VI was launched as a counter drone (by the EWF), that would leave 29 drones (28 bombardment, and one launched by the Gunboat). If the fighters then engaged the stack at range one, and assuming two pulses at the Gunboat drone (which might, at that juncture, have been a type-I, or even a type-IV, targeted on one of the fighters) to guarantee killing it, that left 22 shots at the 28 bombardment drones, each of which had a 67% chance of an outright kill (taking out 15-16 drones, and wounding 6 or 7, leaving 12-13 drones).
If one type-VI was launched as a counter drone (by the EWF), I would have to assume that two phaser-3 shots were fired to kill the other Gunboat drone at range one (since five drones were launched at the Gunboat, there is no other option on this). This still seems to say that two phaser-3 pulses were fired at range one to kill the second Gunboat drone (the problem remaining that without a dedicated counter-drone, you cannot risk that it is targeted on one of the fighters when you go to range zero), but that 22 phaser-G pulses were then fired at range zero on the 28 bombardment drones. There was only a 16% chance that a drone would survive this, which means that 18-19 drones would be killed, and 3-4 drones would be damaged, this would leave 9-10 drones, of which 3-4 would be damaged.
I am just not sure which firing option was used because both you and Chris were involved.
On another note, and to open the floor to some tactical discussion, I did not disagree with Chris' decision to launch drones at the Gunboat rather than at the drones, per se, I principally disagreed with the way he did it. My PERSONAL opinion was that you guys should have had three fighters launch six drones at the Gunboat, of which BOTH might have been type-VI, or there might have been a type-I or two in the mix. The thing is that six drones would have had a good chance of over-taxing the Gunboat's defensive ability. It was already taxed to the limit to deal with five drones (and there was a good chance that two of them might have hit . . . either because the ADD missed or one or both phasers rolled sixes) without being forced to fire the disruptor in desperation at a drone. This would have allowed the other two fighters to fire dogfight drones at the bombardment drones, and would have left you with from two to five type-I drones to fight back to the planet with. Six drones would have had a better chance of forcing the Gunboat to turn away.
That is just my opinion however, but I will note that I chose to have it bore in through the five drones because I thought the chance of killing all five was pretty good, and that even if it missed one, there was a good chance you would not have many phasers to fire at that shield right then. And I would have burned the battery at that point to HET the Gunboat back the other way to keep that shield hidden. Remember, the Gunboat was plus one when it fired (due to the fighters' ECM), and that was because I opted to put a few points into shield reinforcement in case a drone did connect. This was so there would still be some shield boxes and the hull to get through with phaser fire at range four to eight before you could have a good chance of doing "real damage" to the gunboat.
To be honest, I forgot that the fighters could launch 2 drones at the same target. Had I remembered that I would have held fire till we were close then launched a barrage of 10 Type Is at the gunboat from close range I think.
Chris,
1 type I and 1 type VI at the same target is the Launch Rate of the F16M, IIRC.
Hmmm, tough call, kill the G1-K or the 28 drones in the drone stack.
in victory point terms, a dead gunboat is tough to beat.
unless you add in the potential of the drones striking the planet.
Unless there was a gambit that could have allowed Banshee flight to do both (perhaps all three?!?)
I mean, kill the gunboat, kill the 28 drones in the stack and continue the Recon?
I have seen variations and alternatives that "might" have allowed any of the 3 options to succeed...but I have not yet seen a plan that could have accounted for all three results.
If banshee 3 can manage to make back to base, the tactical edge would seem to go to the fighters... if the G1-K can kill 1 or more of the fighters... then the edge would belong to the Klinks... but it appears that the chances of getting a full recon along the lines of the original mission seem slim.
I getting curious to find out what the GWS (a and b) are going to be reporting when targets get to the 150 hex range mark.
There was no way for Banshee to take on both the drones for a kill and the Gunboat.
Killing most of the drones and keeping the Gunboat off our backs was about the best we could do.
Chris - understood.
I was not being critical of your efforts, just trying to point out the issues involved did not (so far as I can tell)offer any series of decisions that would have permitted a better result than what happened.
The important decisions that limited what you and Richard could do were taken years ago when the choice for a single squadron of F-16M's was made.
Had you had a PF of your own, or a pair of F-111's or A-20's you would have other choices... as it was the F-16M's limited you.
Christopher E. Fant:
Craig was partly right. The maximum drone output would have been a dozen drones. Under (J4.241) the EWF could have launched both its type-VIs at the Gunboat, and each of the F-16Ms could have launched either two type-VIs, or a type-VI and a type-I at the Gunboat.
I simply do not think it was necessary to launch that many. The fighters basically had two missions.
They were originally launched for Recon. Now, the recon itself had "flaws", since it was based on an assumption (a true on in this case) that the drones were coming from the six directions (if there were any drones coming at all). The TRUTH is that the drones do not have to come "right down the hex rows", i.e., the drones that are going to hit hex sides A and B could be sideslipping down the middle, splitting at the last moment (some slipping left, some slipping right) to enter the atmosphere above their targets. This means that a standard fighter that went straight north out of hex side A to a distance of 100 hexes (as an example) would NOT detect the drones coming down by that path (An EWF or a fighter with a sensor pod would, of course). This literally means, however, that had the drones been following that route, Banshee Flight would not have detected them at all at 400 hexes (the drones would have been outside the sphere that an EWF could detect and would pass by).
So an actual, very carefully planned, drone bombardment might approach from just three hex spines (by side slipping) and still hit all six hex sides of the planet.
That you have detected the drones at all (from Banshee's report) should be considered a STRONG indication that there is in fact a mass drone bombardment going on. No one in their right mind is going to bombard a planet with less than the number of drones needed for "Devastation" (it is otherwise pointless since it essentially does no "real" damage). This is particularly true because the bombardment drones cannot, I say again, CANNOT be targeted on any of the ground bases and (outside of some lattitude for fiction as I have noted) will not destroy any of the ground based defenses (or even any fighters parked at a fighter ground base).
Now, note that "Special Scenario Rules" for a given planet can define that more (or less) damage is needed for "Devastation" (say a planet that has only one continental land mass located in one quadrant of its southern hemisphere needing only 200 points on that one hex side for Devastation, or a planet that is extremely mountainous being divided into many many valleys with few plains needing 300 points for devastation due to the mountains protecting valleys from the effects of the bombardment).
Forgive the above divergence.
Their second mission is always to protect the planet (there is no reason for them to be there, i.e., based on the planet, other than that. While there are other things they can do, ultimately their job is the defense of the planet). So having contacted the drones (and contacting them as far out as they did), their best means of contributing to the defense of the planet was to destroy the drones.
Now, any military force has an obligation to try to preserve itself. This is not always possible, but you do not sacrifice yourself unless there is no other option. There is a requirement to "Live to fight again another day". Chasing the gunboat would be suicide unless they could be certain something could be gained by it (and there was at this juncture no report of a police cutter charging to the rescue or other help). The Gunboat is faster, has longer ranged weapons, and is much more survivable than the fighters.
To continue:
I would have to say that I would have to regard the best decision as the launching of six (or more) drones at the Gunboat (this would have forced it to turn away and "run out" the type-VIs so that it could identify and fire on the type-Is), two type-VIs at the Gunboat's drones that were in the drone stack, one or two type-VIs at other drones in the stack depending on how many drones were launched at the Gunboat (guaranteed kills), and then 24 phaser-G shots at range zero . . . BUT EVEN THAT IS QUESTIONABLE.
When you are looking at Banshee's tactics, one of the questions that comes up is: What if some of the type-IIIXX drones were type-IIIXXMW drones, and were ACTIVE with a release range set at two hexes? Two or three of those in the stack with random releases would suddenly confront Banshee with six or nine type-VI drones that would have to be shot down, or Banshee would have to drop chaff and blind its own weapons while the drones passed by, and chaff is not a 100% free pass in any case.
In this case there were no type-IIIXXMW drones (at least none that were active . . . yet).
And there was the flat risk that one or more of the type-IIIXX drones was simply targeted on fighters, and went active after the previous way point (continued traveling with the stack like the possible MW drones above), and would have impacted any fighters that entered the hex of the drones before they could fire their phasers.
Launching enough drones to force the Gunboat to turn away and run them out would have pretty much avoided any chance of it crippling one of the fighters (as it was it was a lucky shot).
There is also the question of whether or not other Gunboats are moving in behind the fighters.
Quote:What if some of the type-IIIXX drones were type-IIIXXMW drones, and were ACTIVE with a release range set at two hexes?
But wouldn't that just be a waste of those drone launches+actual Specialty drones if no fighters show up to engage the drones during that "Leg" of their trajectory?
ie:
You launch the drones with Y waypoints
It becomes an active III-MW after waypoint Z
Then it reaches it target (the planet or last waypoint) and never deploys.
Scott Tenhoff:
Sure, but if you are trying to hit a planet that is worth hitting at all, what are the odds that it will NOT have fighters, or at least shuttles? And are those (fighters and/or shuttles) really going sit on the planet (contributing nothing to the defense) or inside the atmosphere (greatly reducing their value to the defense)?
Jeff Wile Said: "Hmmm, tough call, kill the G1-K or the 28 drones in the drone stack."
Response: Depends on how you see the mission. Will killing the G1K increase or decrease the effect of the enemy attack? Certainly destroying the 28 drones will result in a reduction of damage to the planet, but will killing the G1K do that?
Jeff Wile Said: "in victory point terms, a dead gunboat is tough to beat.
Response: But it is relevant only in terms of an overall campaign effect. This is merely an "incident". And killing the Gunboat but allowing more drones to get through to hit the planet could be seen as a really bad exchange, especially if the drones do major damage.
Jeff Wile Said: "unless you add in the potential of the drones striking the planet."
Response: Yes, that is the factor. After all, the fighters are not here to pick off the occasional Gunboat, they are here to protect the planet. If killing the Gunboat accomplishes that, it is a plus, but if all it does is let more drones flood the defenses than otherwise . . . will it could be a very bad trade.
Jeff Wile Said: Unless there was a gambit that could have allowed Banshee flight to do both (perhaps all three?!?)
Response: Banshee had little chance of accomplishing all three due to the distance the intercept occurred. Barring managing to really trick the Gunboat somehow, that seems unlikely. The drones will gain five hexes a turn on Banshee from the point of intercept on, and will be more than 15 hexes ahead of Banshee in three turns.
Jeff Wile Said: I mean, kill the gunboat, kill the 28 drones in the stack and continue the Recon?
Response: I have asked about whether or not the recon will continue, and so far the judgement seems to be that trying to do so with the remaining fighters versus the gunboat is largely suicide. The fighters are going to have a hard enough time trying to get back to the planet as is without giving up some of their own as sacrifices, or simply disengaging and coming back "after the battle". Still, you could suggest to Colonel Knight that he order Major Harding to tell Banshee Flight to continue the recon if you think the sacrifice worth the value of learning if there are more drones or not.
Jeff Wile Said: I have seen variations and alternatives that "might" have allowed any of the 3 options to succeed...but I have not yet seen a plan that could have accounted for all three results.
Response: About the only thing that would have done that would have been to hold the recon flight closer to the planet, it did not HAVE to go all the way out there simply because it could. Did you really need that many turns of specific warning? And if you had them what would you do with them that was going to be any different than what you are doing?
Jeff Wile Said: If banshee 3 can manage to make back to base, the tactical edge would seem to go to the fighters... if the G1-K can kill 1 or more of the fighters... then the edge would belong to the Klinks... but it appears that the chances of getting a full recon along the lines of the original mission seem slim.
Response: See above. There is a general thing that I doubt many here have given much thought to the troubles of a planetary defense unit faced with a drone bombardment attack. Thing is, things were actually WORSE back in the early days of medium speed drones (slower and more poorly armed fighters) and worse still back in the days of Moderate Speed drones (no fighters at all). Sure, those type-IIIXXs were even slower and would spend more time in your engagement window (taking ten turns from range 100 to impact), but you usually could not engage them effectively except for the last three turns.
Jeff Wile Said: I getting curious to find out what the GWS (a and b) are going to be reporting when targets get to the 150 hex range mark.
Response: And when Richard Sherman gets to the point of having that G1K harrassing him on the wa back, I will probabl post that data.
SPP:
As you know from my previous e-mails to you, I would have preferred both Klingon G1-launched drones to be either counter-droned and countered via "downshifting", other type-VI's launched as counter-drones, and phasers left available against the G1, if needed (or used to get more drone kills if the type-I strike worked out). But Chris sent otherwise, and you posted here otherwise. I therefore felt obligated to "memorialize" it that way. However, while only one was counter-droned, and the second one was phasered (by Banshee 6) at range 1, the remaining 22 phasers engaged the 28 drones at range 0, per that part of my original plan.
Therefore, using your already-posted "tally's", and unless you forbid it, I'm going to count that as 19 kills (plus the 2 G1 drones), 3 "wounds," and 6 undamaged.
With your permission, I'll proceed with "the color" from there.
And BTW, guys, I don't think Banshee 3 (me) is going to make it home..."Do me a favor? Tell my children I love them." (Quoting Independence Day...badly...for those of you who live in a cave...)
Doncha' you just love it when a writer offs himself (well, is about to...)?